Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] Permaculture standards.

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: ChildrensPeaceGuild <childrenspeaceguild@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture standards.
  • Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 07:52:29 -0700 (PDT)

> Once commercialized will mainstream people think they can "do permaculture"
> and still wear a $5,000 dress?

That is a non-issue and serves only to distract. If Warren Buffet
promoted permaculture from within a $20000000 mansion on his own
tropical isle with a staff of 5000 people, including food farmers
that would be just fine as long as his message was consistent with
the high standards of permaculture maintained by any and all with a
clear view of what it is all about. Overtly using it to sell something
non-permaculture related would be unacceptable.
 
You're right. I probably could've worded that better, too.
My point was that the message "could" be compromised if delivered by someone
who could not have made their wealth without violating the earthcare,
peoplecare, and fairshare ethics. If Warren Buffet promoted permaculture, I
would support it, but with natural reservations and concerns.
I am all for getting the message out to the populace (after all I have taught
permaculture in the public school system), by any means necessary.
 
I was wondering how to keep the quality of the standards consistent as more
varied methods of teaching/promoting/selling permaculture are attempted (like
the permaculture-tour telemarketer, for example). I think we can all agree on
that point.
 
Thank you for helping me to clarify my concerns.
>From cory8570@yahoo.com Wed Jul 25 11:37:43 2012
Return-Path: <cory8570@yahoo.com>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 20217)
id E5753E8AED; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 11:37:43 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
mailman1.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, HTML_MESSAGE,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
Received: from nm27-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
(nm27-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.213.139])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 34A53E8AE4
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Wed, 25 Jul 2012 11:37:39 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [98.139.212.153] by nm27.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
25 Jul 2012 15:37:38 -0000
Received: from [98.139.212.207] by tm10.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
25 Jul 2012 15:37:38 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP;
25 Jul 2012 15:37:38 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 754912.5717.bm@omp1016.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 66967 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Jul 2012 15:37:38 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: Zj1gt7EVM1md5XMkWUwkZpukzlZwbOCb2PNTq_c.9XKIn6i
LAj47AsGKwMHyRO2pDuKv3rglkd9a4q_boTaexrcwhi81jt_2xILSd9lJXtD
b3sbDD7QYd6wit8bbhWO2gpf8SKleDylwqsvZUqhBi6t7LfiXy51ALIJ5mew
h1EtNZHVMQ9oJ930Oqxfc3jp94uJa9b9zYy1Q3ZHV384xfZCA4X_nOKbOilq
hvcRLFvAgeK.eMlLrO6UMjXnhbRLcUPgybHj3OMyhIXFhiVB3VF22GFn8aaj
0hpnoqvDoZXjM7JzNkt.cqzsLuE5vMJ09lJRImygHciamz4Di9qZgqq4TD8G
YWZJ759Z9hCPYxC8P9NFMERzZ4MQ67yWnCZWu3oFEbSQI_kHotLkApFuw9aF
fgZ79GIzqMtqlLcors7STyEewS0N103WL37rF3WH7rsd4rbF.1NffpPSHHY5
nDbI_lU0yVarr0M_FM3Vq5wLB7hGtbVgjfulmn96iNxsb1T0e9LaHDWAFdLg
TXnQHAgYjTaVGZj8qEA2Qk8sqP_eatcmhf39Hm6SYhv2awIWQso6OjMWVOHn
PJedE4HKsfQmWV.E8bzAjl2Rn.g7ayRkK3sljS5J.og514ACBB5_HeZtMwRk
VHDBcr223RjcCXZHvIRR9T1Cg43QcQD_Ad4DP4cOuPOxVp89Jt36mSyrDMlF
uM3TLiQ_C7_T6bq3lnHo1D5p5ywlq
Received: from [68.235.248.70] by web161002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP;
Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:37:38 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233
References: <1342598298.12306.YahooMailNeo@web161005.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
<COL105-W31339CF70D90A3D2FC41CAA8DE0@phx.gbl>
<500CD8C5.9000607@bobwaldrop.net>
<CA+D+XR9cfSAn3wYWU7=YyrRag69fTz9HReA=pXÁ32x=3i6HQ@mail.gmail.com>
<500EF956.1030309@bobwaldrop.net>
Message-ID: <1343230658.66685.YahooMailNeo@web161002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
In-Reply-To: <500EF956.1030309@bobwaldrop.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Subject: Re: [permaculture] National convergence- keep it rolling
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:37:43 -0000

I think we need to be really clear on what we want to accomplish and it needs
to clearly forward permaculture more broadly and deeply. And I agree it
should not be every year, and we should work through the ethics of it.
Design! It would be pretty cool to plant several thousand trees if we do
this, wherever we do it. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
www.meetup.com/createclearwater


________________________________
From: Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] National convergence- keep it rolling

I am glad to hear that the sisters are thinking about the carbon karma
associated with an event like this.  Do you know Sister Mary Moloney
(formerly of OKC, now in transition to St Marys in the Woods, Indiana)?
I think she was there.  I am glad to hear that they actually calculated
their carbon burden.

If a national convergence comes to be, it should do the same, and also
if it does something like go to one of the areas of Native American
settlement (I refuse to say the "R" word), we should adopt the Burning
Man  ethos of packing out EVERYTHING that you bring in, including all of
the trash.  Either that or work out methods/systems to recycle and
compost it on-site.  A third area of importance would be the food.  All
of the food for the convergence should come from ethical sources.

I know it seems like I am saying "NO NO NO", but mostly I am saying "NOT
YET NOT YET" and also "IF WE DO THIS MAKE IT ETHICAL".  I would be
really against an every year national convergence, but one national
convergence every four to eight years seems reasonable to me.

Maybe we need a thread -- ethical considerations for presenting a
national permaculture convergence.

Bob Waldrop, Okie City

On 7/23/2012 2:40 PM, Rhonda Baird wrote:
> Bob,
>
> Your point is well-made. I just attended a continental conference for the
> Sisters of Earth. I only went because it was local to me. I LOVED
> attending--loved being inspired by all the things shared there by the many,
> many women who have been working to protect, serve, and regenerate the
> Earth for decades. I loved seeing Nettie Weibe of Via Campesina speak.
> Loved meeting Carolyn Baker.
>
> AND the travel (let alone the food getting there, etc...) created more than
> 65 tons of CO2 according to the records. Those recording it were advocating
> for just the same thing--regional gatherings more and continental
> gatherings rarely and by other means.
>
> --in service,
> Rhonda Baird
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net> wrote:
>
>> On 7/22/2012 12:49 PM, loren luyendyk wrote:
>>> Bob- when I said it is your karma what method of travel you choose, I
>> meat that you (individual) will be the one who has to deal with your
>> choice.  There are many low-carbon ways to transport ourselves these days,
>> so I don't think this is much of an issue if this is important to you.
>>  However, I do agree that we should design the convergence with low-carbon
>> transport in mind, like near a bus route or offer rideshares on a llama
>> cart.
>> I understood what you said, but I don't think you are understanding what
>> I am saying. It's not just me who has to deal with my choice. It's the
>> entire eco-system and all of its associated creatures. A choice to get
>> on an airplane and travel across the world is a choice that poisons the
>> atmosphere and contributes to anthropogenic climate change.  No one can
>> do just one thing, that's a basic design principle.  It doesn't matter
>> whether avoiding climate emissions is important to me, and not important
>> to others. All choices are not equal. Some choices are worse than
>> others.  Some choices do more damage than others.  If permaculture sets
>> up what amounts to an attractive nuisance -- a national convergence that
>> encourages people to drive individual cars and book airline tickets --
>> then the permaculture movement is making a deliberate strategic choice
>> to poison the atmosphere and contribute to climate change for our own
>> selfish reasons.  Maybe repaying some karma by doing work at an area
>> populated by lots of Native Americans would make a convergence
>> worthwhile, as long as people take the bus.  But if people are going to
>> fly from around the nation, we would be better off if we simply sent
>> them money.
>>
>> Permaculture the US Movement has its own karma.  And if we are going to
>> become just another way to promote tourism for people of privileged
>> economic, social, and racial status at the expense of damaging the
>> natural ecology -- poisoning the air, polluting the waters, killing
>> birds, well, that's not very good karma.  What goes around comes around
>> and I don't want to be on the receiving end of those consequences.  I
>> think authenticity is one of the most important civic virtues when it
>> comes to invisible structures and so if we are going to have a national
>> convergence, either it happens in accordance with permaculture ethics or
>> its not a permaculture conference.  It's a gathering of privileged white
>> people doing what privileged white people like to do, which is burn
>> hydrocarbons by traveling, while they comfort themselves with the
>> thought that they are so special that their carbon emissions don't
>> really impact the planet, so it is fine to fly around the world in
>> pursuit of the perfect permaculture experience.
>>
>> I have a friend in Act-Up and he has a lot of influence on me so I'm
>> just saying IT CAN'T BE ALLOWED!  lol.
>>
>> I think that the ethics constitute a mandate for organized permaculture
>> that we ignore to our peril. We can trivialize the risks of burning the
>> rest of our fossil fuel endowment if it makes us feel better about our
>> choices, but I'm not seeing much in the way of permaculture in that.
>> Privileged white people need to learn more about how to say "no" to
>> their incessant urge to travel.  Stability -- becoming "one" with a
>> particular local ecosystem and watershed and just staying home in your
>> home town or close by -- is very kind to the planet.  Flying around the
>> planet, even for good motives, is very harsh on the planet.
>>
>> So if we are going to have a convergence, I think the first thing to do
>> is hang out a big sign that says "DON'T FLY TO ATTEND. TAKE THE BUS."
>> People who don't have time to take the bus shouldn't go to the convergence.
>>
>> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>> Google message archive search:
>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>
>

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>From stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com Wed Jul 25 12:08:23 2012
Return-Path: <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Delivered-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix, from userid 20217)
id 382AAE8A90; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:08:23 -0400 (EDT)
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
mailman1.ibiblio.org
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20, HTML_MESSAGE,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
Received: from mail-vc0-f177.google.com (mail-vc0-f177.google.com
[209.85.220.177])
by lists.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1D6E8A48
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:08:22 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by vcbfl13 with SMTP id fl13so726470vcb.36
for <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>;
Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:08:22 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.52.69.237 with SMTP id h13mr16436304vdu.82.1343232502229; Wed,
25 Jul 2012 09:08:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.98.225 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:08:22 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <1343227949.29306.YahooMailNeo@web161604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References:
<CA+j2Q+Ba6MvGZK0cQqRyJjbGTsvgJ+NHjEGfUrgd_RFwr_u_yA@mail.gmail.com>
<1343031572.72992.YahooMailNeo@web164602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
<500D9788.1070908@bellsouth.net>
<1343227949.29306.YahooMailNeo@web161604.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 18:08:22 +0200
Message-ID:
<CALkGY+qbcSgb9H111JiGydQoR3Wgqxc3Sj1s-QUtkqJLZnfEPQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture standards.
X-BeenThere: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: permaculture <permaculture.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture>
List-Post: <mailto:permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>,
<mailto:permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:08:23 -0000

Interesting points by many, but I think our major problem with standards is
within not on the outside. Having been actively involved at many levels
within the worlds of Permaculture since 1981 I have seen far too much abuse
of the sort Scott speaks of and much more from those masquerading as
consultants and teachers and designers...designing failures and continuing
the charade. Teaching without any experience or knowledge of the subjects.
I have seen so many in my home territory of New Zealand and also many in
Australia and elsewhere. Is the abuse worth doing anything about or is it
still promotion of Permaculture ? Is the failure of "Greening of the
Desert" worth announcing or is this evangelism selling the prophecy greater
than the mistakes and abuse in his reality ? So what do we do about it ?
Anything ? The Permaculture membership dwells in the hippie fringe and the
people who own 98% of the worlds resources are barely connected to / with.
Who is talkin to Jimmy Buffet ?

What can we do about it ? Can we stimulate the issues, needs, expectations,
solutions ? Is the problem the solution ? Personally I would like to see a
structure, an internationally recognised and accepted structure. Awards for
good design. A teachers college ? a designers giuild ?...and a court a jury
and a group of elders. All good points to raise at your next conference
and especially in Cuba.
[image: Picture]
Steve Hart
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page