permaculture

[ChildrensPeaceGuild <childrenspeaceguild@yahoo.com>]

> Once commercialized will mainstream people think they can "do permaculture" 
> and still wear a $5,000 dress?

That is a non-issue and serves only to distract. If Warren Buffet 
promoted permaculture from within a $20000000 mansion on his own 
tropical isle with a staff of 5000 people, including food farmers
that would be just fine as long as his message was consistent with
the high standards of permaculture maintained by any and all with a 
clear view of what it is all about. Overtly using it to sell something 
non-permaculture related would be unacceptable.
 
You're right. I probably could've worded that better, too.
My point was that the message "could" be compromised if delivered by someone 
who could not have made their wealth without violating the earthcare, 
peoplecare, and fairshare ethics. If Warren Buffet promoted permaculture, I 
would support it, but with natural reservations and concerns.
I am all for getting the message out to the populace (after all I have taught 
permaculture in the public school system), by any means necessary.
 
I was wondering how to keep the quality of the standards consistent as more 
varied methods of teaching/promoting/selling permaculture are attempted (like 
the permaculture-tour telemarketer, for example). I think we can all agree on 
that point.
 
Thank you for helping me to clarify my concerns.
>From cory8570@yahoo.com  Wed Jul 25 11:37:43 2012
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From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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I think we need to be really clear on what we want to accomplish and it needs 
to clearly forward permaculture more broadly and deeply. And I agree it 
should not be every year, and we should work through the ethics of it. 
Design! It would be pretty cool to plant several thousand trees if we do 
this, wherever we do it. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
www.meetup.com/createclearwater


________________________________
 From: Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] National convergence- keep it rolling
 
I am glad to hear that the sisters are thinking about the carbon karma 
associated with an event like this.  Do you know Sister Mary Moloney 
(formerly of OKC, now in transition to St Marys in the Woods, Indiana)? 
I think she was there.  I am glad to hear that they actually calculated 
their carbon burden.

If a national convergence comes to be, it should do the same, and also 
if it does something like go to one of the areas of Native American 
settlement (I refuse to say the "R" word), we should adopt the Burning 
Man  ethos of packing out EVERYTHING that you bring in, including all of 
the trash.  Either that or work out methods/systems to recycle and 
compost it on-site.  A third area of importance would be the food.  All 
of the food for the convergence should come from ethical sources.

I know it seems like I am saying "NO NO NO", but mostly I am saying "NOT 
YET NOT YET" and also "IF WE DO THIS MAKE IT ETHICAL".  I would be 
really against an every year national convergence, but one national 
convergence every four to eight years seems reasonable to me.

Maybe we need a thread -- ethical considerations for presenting a 
national permaculture convergence.

Bob Waldrop, Okie City

On 7/23/2012 2:40 PM, Rhonda Baird wrote:
> Bob,
>
> Your point is well-made. I just attended a continental conference for the
> Sisters of Earth. I only went because it was local to me. I LOVED
> attending--loved being inspired by all the things shared there by the many,
> many women who have been working to protect, serve, and regenerate the
> Earth for decades. I loved seeing Nettie Weibe of Via Campesina speak.
> Loved meeting Carolyn Baker.
>
> AND the travel (let alone the food getting there, etc...) created more than
> 65 tons of CO2 according to the records. Those recording it were advocating
> for just the same thing--regional gatherings more and continental
> gatherings rarely and by other means.
>
> --in service,
> Rhonda Baird
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net> wrote:
>
>> On 7/22/2012 12:49 PM, loren luyendyk wrote:
>>> Bob- when I said it is your karma what method of travel you choose, I
>> meat that you (individual) will be the one who has to deal with your
>> choice.  There are many low-carbon ways to transport ourselves these days,
>> so I don't think this is much of an issue if this is important to you.
>>   However, I do agree that we should design the convergence with low-carbon
>> transport in mind, like near a bus route or offer rideshares on a llama
>> cart.
>> I understood what you said, but I don't think you are understanding what
>> I am saying. It's not just me who has to deal with my choice. It's the
>> entire eco-system and all of its associated creatures. A choice to get
>> on an airplane and travel across the world is a choice that poisons the
>> atmosphere and contributes to anthropogenic climate change.  No one can
>> do just one thing, that's a basic design principle.   It doesn't matter
>> whether avoiding climate emissions is important to me, and not important
>> to others. All choices are not equal. Some choices are worse than
>> others.  Some choices do more damage than others.  If permaculture sets
>> up what amounts to an attractive nuisance -- a national convergence that
>> encourages people to drive individual cars and book airline tickets --
>> then the permaculture movement is making a deliberate strategic choice
>> to poison the atmosphere and contribute to climate change for our own
>> selfish reasons.  Maybe repaying some karma by doing work at an area
>> populated by lots of Native Americans would make a convergence
>> worthwhile, as long as people take the bus.  But if people are going to
>> fly from around the nation, we would be better off if we simply sent
>> them money.
>>
>> Permaculture the US Movement has its own karma.  And if we are going to
>> become just another way to promote tourism for people of privileged
>> economic, social, and racial status at the expense of damaging the
>> natural ecology -- poisoning the air, polluting the waters, killing
>> birds, well, that's not very good karma.  What goes around comes around
>> and I don't want to be on the receiving end of those consequences.  I
>> think authenticity is one of the most important civic virtues when it
>> comes to invisible structures and so if we are going to have a national
>> convergence, either it happens in accordance with permaculture ethics or
>> its not a permaculture conference.  It's a gathering of privileged white
>> people doing what privileged white people like to do, which is burn
>> hydrocarbons by traveling, while they comfort themselves with the
>> thought that they are so special that their carbon emissions don't
>> really impact the planet, so it is fine to fly around the world in
>> pursuit of the perfect permaculture experience.
>>
>> I have a friend in Act-Up and he has a lot of influence on me so I'm
>> just saying IT CAN'T BE ALLOWED!  lol.
>>
>> I think that the ethics constitute a mandate for organized permaculture
>> that we ignore to our peril. We can trivialize the risks of burning the
>> rest of our fossil fuel endowment if it makes us feel better about our
>> choices, but I'm not seeing much in the way of permaculture in that.
>> Privileged white people need to learn more about how to say "no" to
>> their incessant urge to travel.  Stability -- becoming "one" with a
>> particular local ecosystem and watershed and just staying home in your
>> home town or close by -- is very kind to the planet.  Flying around the
>> planet, even for good motives, is very harsh on the planet.
>>
>> So if we are going to have a convergence, I think the first thing to do
>> is hang out a big sign that says "DON'T FLY TO ATTEND. TAKE THE BUS."
>> People who don't have time to take the bus shouldn't go to the convergence.
>>
>> Bob Waldrop, Okie City
>>
>>
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>From stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 12:08:23 2012
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Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture standards.
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Interesting points by many, but I think our major problem with standards is
within not on the outside. Having been actively involved at many levels
within the worlds of Permaculture since 1981 I have seen far too much abuse
of the sort Scott speaks of and much more from those masquerading as
consultants and teachers and designers...designing failures and continuing
the charade. Teaching without any experience or knowledge of the subjects.
I have seen so many in my home territory of New Zealand and also many in
Australia and elsewhere. Is the abuse worth doing anything about or is it
still promotion of Permaculture ? Is the failure of "Greening of the
Desert" worth announcing or is this evangelism selling the prophecy greater
than the mistakes and abuse in his reality ? So what do we do about it ?
Anything ? The Permaculture membership dwells in the hippie fringe and the
people who own 98% of the worlds resources are barely connected to / with.
Who is talkin to Jimmy Buffet ?

What can we do about it ? Can we stimulate the issues, needs, expectations,
solutions ? Is the problem the solution ? Personally I would like to see a
structure, an internationally recognised and accepted structure. Awards for
good design. A teachers college ? a designers giuild ?...and a court a jury
and a group of elders.  All good points to raise at your next conference
and especially in Cuba.
[image: Picture]
Steve Hart
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart