permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

OK, I'm back.  What did I miss?  Yikes!  Looks like someone brought the heat!
 
One thing I really enjoy about this list is that the people involved are 
almost without exception gracious and forgiving.  It demonstrates a real 
character in permaculture that keeps me coming back.  I've seen a few times 
when harsh words were exchanged, and for the most part we all seem to be good 
friends moving toward a common goal at the end of the day.  I think that must 
be rare in a world that is busy wrapping up its growth cycle.
 
Another thing I learned in all this: Don't....EVER....ever, ever, ever, ever, 
ever, ever...mention the phrase "New Age" in a permacultural setting.  Or 
risk being beaten about the back, chest, face, neck, and head area with a dry 
leguminous branch in the winter of its discontent.  The mere mention of those 
words apparently erases any formal education, practical experience, and 
predisposition to reason, from the utterer's credentials. 
 
Perhaps I should've just said, "Hey guys and gals, I experienced this 
incredible mental paradigm shift about a year ago at the same time I 
discovered permaculture.  Totally rocked my world.  Is this a normal part of 
the curriculum?  Is that why everyone speaks so highly of their PDCs?  Did 
they come away from them with a similar enlightenment?  Any sort of spiritual 
connection is very foreign to me, although I'm definitely digging it!  At the 
risk of sounding New Agey, I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on the 
matter."
 
But see, I would have uttered one of the sacred phrases (the others are Nee!, 
Peng!, and Nooooo-one!) and required a cleansing through pain with the 
leguminous twig thingy.  Dangerous ground.  
 
But I've enjoyed it.
 
Tripp out.



The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Sun, 12/13/09, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> wrote:


From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] the gardener's shadow falls both ways
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 10:35 PM


I've terrifically enjoyed these threads, and keep finding that about 
anything I could think of saying (and then some!) is being said, and 
well. Thanks for such sensitive and intelligent words.

A couple of notes: Mitch's horror story about his PDC shows one of the 
big drawbacks to decentralized processes. Those "teachers" were not 
following the curriculum set down by Mollison in the PDC handbook. There 
is no "Zone 0" (personal psychology) in the curriculum. Nor flag 
painting. You don't teach seed saving on day 1. You don't synopsize 
people's books in class. I don't think these folks had the chops to 
teach a PDC, and were filling the days with crap to make up for their 
own incompetence. Fortunately, these teachers are the exception. There 
is an established procedure of training (2 years full-time work in 
design and teaching with experienced mentors, taking a teacher training, 
and more) and I doubt if those clowns followed it.

To those considering taking a PDC: do your homework, just like you would 
before spending money on a college, car, or doctor. You wouldn't go in 
blind to any of those, right? Get recommendations from their students, 
get a copy of their curriculum, and find out who they learned from and 
how, and how many courses they've taught and where. Most teachers are 
good, but there are some flakes out there, and there are also teachers 
with whom your learning style may not be compatible.

Since there is no credential process, the next best indicator, I think, 
is lineage: Who taught them, and who taught their teachers? To some 
extent, the fewer links between them and Mollison, the better. And some 
lineages have far more New Age practices, or circle dancing, or 
whatever, than others, and some are very urban, and some very 
scientific, and some consensus oriented, and others more autocratic in 
style. Ask around. Hell, ask me off list; I know a lot of teachers.

And in reply to an earlier question, dance and song are excellent ways 
of learning, having been used to teach for millennia. But I'd be 
circumspect about what is being sung or danced. As we've seen here, 
spirituality in PDCs is a hot button. To me, a song about the mother 
goddess is no more appropriate for a PDC than is a song about our all 
being lambs of Jesus or children of Legba. Earth-centered spirituality 
is so much the water permies swim in that we can be blind to its 
presence. I've had evangelical Christians, Muslims, and hasidic Jews in 
my classes point out how excluding some of our language is. Some folks 
would be offended at being made to sing Christian hymns in a PDC; others 
at being asked to sing about Gaia. If we stick to stuff that works for 
everyone, we reach a lot more people. Lee made this point very nicely: 
You can pray to whoever you want or to no one, and a solar panel still 
collects.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


Lee Flier wrote:
> fdnokes@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Interesting discussion...
>> Truly, community will move ahead or fall apart on lines of culture...
>> Yes, having courses that are free of it will offer something to 
>> everybody.
>> But, they will not create community.
>>
> I disagree... at my PDC there was a wonderful sense of community, and
> there was no mention (by the instructors) of any specific spiritual
> directive.
>> Wouldn't it be a part of a course to have people introduce 
>> themselves, where
>> they're coming from, why they're in the course, etc.?
>>
>
> Absolutely, and in my class, each person did just that. We even had a
> talent show at the end of the course, where each student or a group of
> students could put on a skit or play, or sing a song, do a comedy act,
> make a flint tool, any kind of talent of their choosing.
>
> We also had class hikes through the mountains, nightly campfires where
> we sat around talking and telling stories.
>
> None of this served to alienate anybody of any particular spiritual or
> religious belief, including atheists. And none of it contradicted any
> accepted science or observable reality. :)
>
>
>
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>From erda@nor.com.au  Sun Dec 13 21:32:12 2009
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 Lee Flier wrote:

>> Or worse - they're control freaks using the mantle of "permaculture
>> teacher" to push their personal agenda on others.  I've seen this a lot,
>> unfortunately.  Most of these folks try to hoist Mollison on his own
>> petard by pointing out that permaculture is meant to be decentralized,
>> therefore if they disagree with Mollison on something, Mollison must be
>> wrong, he's not a god or a guru, etc.  All of which is true, but beside
>> the point.

In some respects I find the above statement a little disturbing,
disagreement with Bill for good/sound reason is essential for permaculture
to evolve and maintain currency. The Designers Manual, which unfortunately
many refer to as the permaculture 'Bible' (I really cringe when I hear that
from permevangelists), perpetuates a permaculture frozen in time (1988),
this attitude is a bit too cultish for my inquiring mind, and the
publication unfortunately contains quite a few mistakes, i.e. Scientific
errors. (e.g. A qualified aquaculturist who was asked to proof the section
on aquaculture found quite a few mistakes pertaining to water chemistry,
none of which were corrected for the final publication -- this is not an
isolated incidence).
I note very little mention of David Holmgren and his contribution to the
ongoing evolution of permaculture in these discussions. David refers to the
PDM as the Permaculture Encyclopaedia (I'm more comfortable with that
description than "Bible").
BTW I love and respect both Bill and David, and disagreement on some points
does not negate the great legacy they've given us.

Re the topic of PDCs...
In my PDC's (minimum 80 hrs) I cover the essence of all the chapters of the
PDM, but as my own curriculum/insights and with some additions e.g. I
include Holmgrens principles, a session on integrated pest and weed
strategies, annual veg and maincrop production, Zone V includes ecological
restoration with an intro to native wildfoods and ethno botany, soil
includes soil-food-web (also not mentioned in the PDM) and brief explanation
of biodynamic practices (not cosmology), and I have completely revamped the
invisible and settlement aspects of the PDM in line with my considerable
permaculture experience in human settlement design, community and
organisational development (I find Chapter 14 very 70's and somewhat
deficient in some areas), I commence the course with a session on learning
styles and creative problem solving, and the list could go on.
Depending on the group, we will sing songs as energisers, and most courses
might include a circle dance or two (usually tied to pattern learning in
traditional cultures), but songs and dances are chosen with care to be
inclusive and not alienating.
Zone zero is a subliminal component and I find those not inclined to
spirituality will usually experience some kind shift in earth connection as
a result of a practical-oriented PDC, not as a result of pushing the barrow.
The course inherently contains enough challenges to personal dogmas for most
folk to deal with.
Robyn