permaculture

[Martin Naylor <martinwnaylor@yahoo.com.au>]

and all you realy have to do is see the limit of thought and go beyond,which 
is so difficult because it is so simple,this needs to be understood before 
you can observe,
the universe started from hydrogen and helium life began from dna combining 
with rna, there are things we do not understand yet, but to claim they are a 
mystery, is a bit wild, and to claim there is a soul is a bit wild, although 
possible, anything is possible, but thought will create these escapes,along 
with faith hopes dreams desires etc to avoid confronting itself 
love exist but to claim it does, is a bit wild
it took about 13 billion years to get here,what would be intelligent is to 
just be for a while, a flower doesn't wake up or go to sleep and think i'm 
going to be beutifull and smell lovely tomorrow it is
there are no individuals we all hear and see the same things, but instead of 
allowing things to be, thought[yours and mine] insist on interprating the 
thing or situation,
truth is, the false is not, but we except the false as true because, we can't 
see, thought's little game

Scott & Donna Root <news@rusticroots.com> wrote:
You are speaking in terms of the soul and of course I can never know 
your soul completely and with absolute certainty and you can never know 
mine completely and with absolute certainty, but when we are speaking of 
the flesh we all know each other with absolute certainty and clarity and 
that is the fact that the flesh has certain needs of which are food, 
clothes, shelter, oxygen and sunlight and the mind has certain needs to 
satisfy its curiosity and those are absolute answers to the needs of the 
flesh and provisions for their curious nature and that is 
transsportation to exp-lore this wonderful creation and of course if 
possible to exp[lore this wonderful galaxy and beyond. The soul has 
many flavors and can never be "named" but the flesh has natural 
boundaries and the mind has a natural need for satisfaction. The latter 
2 can be satisfied by human endeavor but the former can never be 
contained for it is boundless.




Keith Johnson wrote:

> For further elucidation on the subject of ignorance I recommend 
> reading the latest issue of the Activist (our 20 year anniversary 
> issue) that includes an excellent article by Wes Jackson entitled 
> Toward an Ignorance-based Worldview which he delivered at a conference 
> with the same title. This from his invitation to that event:
>
> "Imagine an ignorance-based science and technology in which
> practitioners would be ever conscious that we are billions of times
> more ignorant than knowledgeable and always will be."
>
> He concludes his article with this:
>
> "...maybe it's time to start with a certain amount of humility and
> say we're fundamentally ignorant about the way minds change.
> Acknowledging that we are fundamentally ignorant, we now can ask a
> question that goes beyond the available answers, and that's going to
> force knowledge out of its categories.
>
> We would be fundamentally respectful of our original relationship
> with the universe. There might even be a more joyful participation
> in our engagement with the world."
>
> There are teachers who recommend a "Way of Divine Ignorance" as a 
> way to remain true to our priorly and always already native and actual 
> condition.
>
> See http://www.adidam.org/adida/religion/dhome.htm?go=wayignorance.htm 
> where the following quote derives.
>
> "The presumption of familiarity with objects and others is only a
> product of the presumption of separateness from them. The movement
> to "name" things and presume familiarity is based in fear of
> unknowability or loss of control. But names are only superficial and
> ultimately arbitrary.
>
> Your native state of being is not separation, knowledge, or
> familiarity, but the unknowability of simple Existence beyond fear
> or contraction."
>
> You will find reference to an excellent story for chidren at 
> http://www.adidam.org/adida/teachings/dhome.htm?go=divineignorance.htm 
> which helps us and them grow into stable and constant re-cognition of 
> this fundamental and natural state or condition.
>
> Here's text from the book on the subject:
>
> An Excerpt from What, Where, When, How, Why, and Who To Remember To Be
> Happy
>
> Have you heard this is an apple? [Picture]
> Have you been told this is a tree? [Picture]
> Do you think this is the moon? [Picture] and this the sun?
> [Picture]
> Have you told someone this is a little girl? [Picture] and
> this is a little boy? [Picture]
> Well. But you and I can be very truthful to each other. And
> it seems
> to Me that, no matter what we name this or this or this or this or 
> this
> or this, we still do not know what they Are. Truly, you and I don't
> know what even a single thing Is. Do you know what I Am? See? And I
> don't know what you Are, either. It is a Mystery. Doesn't it make you
> feel good to feel It?
> Did you ever ask somebody where this or this or this came
> from, or how
> this or this or this came to be? Some say, "I don't know", and saying
> this makes them feel they are being very honest and truthful. Others
> say something such as "God made it", or "It comes from God". And such
> people are also being very honest and truthful when they say this.
> How can they both be telling the truth? Well, because they
> are both
> telling you the same thing in different ways. You see, nobody - not
> Mom, or Dad, or Grandmother, or Grandfather, or big Sister, or big
> Brother, or teachers, or doctors, or soldiers, or athletes, or 
> lawyers,
> or TV stars, or any people who are working, or any people who are
> playing, not even a President, not even a King or a Queen, not even
> people who love each other - nobody knows what even a single thing Is.
> It is a great and more-than-wonderful Mystery to everyone that 
> anything
> is, or that we are. And whether somebody says "I don't know how
> anything came to be" or "God made everything", they are simply 
> pointing
> to the feeling of the Mystery - of how everything is, but nobody knows
> what it really Is, or how it came to be.
> As long as you go on feeling this Mystery, you feel free and
> full and
> happy - and you feel and act free and full and happy to others. 
> This is
> the secret of being happy from the time you are small until the time
> you are old.
> Everybody - even all the animals - goes on living for a
> while, and
> then the part of them you see and touch and talk to every day when you
> wake up goes to sleep in the feeling of the Mystery. This happens to
> everybody. And everybody has to live every day without being afraid to
> go to sleep. This can be difficult, even when you are small. 
> Especially
> because people sometimes forget the Mystery, and get unhappy, and try
> to make others feel unhappy - by making them think things that make
> them afraid and make them forget the Mystery.
> So the way to keep on being happy every day until you go to
> sleep is
> to remember the Mystery. Just keep on remembering that you, with
> everybody else, do not know what even a single thing Is - not even an
> [apple].
> Just remember this- or remember Real God, which is the same
> thing.
> Keep on remembering Real God as the Mystery, and you will feel happy
> and act happy to others - and so you will keep on loving and helping
> others, so the world won't get all afraid, and stupid, and unable to
> sleep or play or work.
> If you do this all the time, you will have lots of amazing and
> more-than-wonderful experiences until you go back to sleep. And, if 
> you
> remember the Mystery even when you are going to sleep, then you 
> will go
> to sleep all happy in the Mystery. And you will always wake up in the
> Mystery, too. And all your dreams will be about the Mystery, until you
> wake up again.
>
> "The conditional self Is Inherently (or Divinely) Ignorant. The
> conditional self Is (Inherently, Always Already, and Cannot Ever Be
> Else Than) knowledgeless, or Bereft and Free Of The Familiar (or the
> known). Indeed, the conditional self (or conventional "I") Is
> (itself) An Illusion Of knowledge (or Of Familiarity)--and, If The
> Inherent (and Self-Evidently Divine) Condition Of Ignorance Is
> Realized In any moment, the "knowledge" of body, mind, or
> conditional "I" Is Replaced By The Mystery Of Inherently bodiless,
> mindless, and selfless Being."
>
> Kinda ups the ante on the whole subject of observation and meditation, 
> too.
>
> "As long as the individual is simply seeking, and has all kinds of
> motivation, fascination with the search, this is not
> understanding--this is dilemma itself. But where this dilemma is
> understood, there is the re-cognition of a structure in the living
> consciousness, a separation. And when that separation is observed
> more and more directly, one begins to see that what one is suffering
> is not something happening to one but it is one's own action. It is
> as if you are pinching yourself, without being aware of it. You are
> "creating" a subtle pain, and, worse than the pain, a continuous
> modification, which is "mind", which the living consciousness
> identifies as itself. The more one observes this, the more one's
> search is abandoned, spontaneously, intelligently."
>
> Long live ignorance! We'll never get beyond it, so let's get used to 
> it...or, even, enlivened and enlightened by it... and on its basis may 
> we all realize...
>
> "...the truly adult capability to live intentionally as love in all
> relations."
>
> Anyway, my 2 or 3 cents worth. An interesting thread.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 8/29/2005
> 
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> 
>

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


                
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
  The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and 
full Actor Database.