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  • From: Scott & Donna Root <news@rusticroots.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Educating the ignorant (i.e. everybody including us)
  • Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 20:48:46 -0700

You are speaking in terms of the soul and of course I can never know your soul completely and with absolute certainty and you can never know mine completely and with absolute certainty, but when we are speaking of the flesh we all know each other with absolute certainty and clarity and that is the fact that the flesh has certain needs of which are food, clothes, shelter, oxygen and sunlight and the mind has certain needs to satisfy its curiosity and those are absolute answers to the needs of the flesh and provisions for their curious nature and that is transsportation to exp-lore this wonderful creation and of course if possible to exp[lore this wonderful galaxy and beyond. The soul has many flavors and can never be "named" but the flesh has natural boundaries and the mind has a natural need for satisfaction. The latter 2 can be satisfied by human endeavor but the former can never be contained for it is boundless.




Keith Johnson wrote:

For further elucidation on the subject of ignorance I recommend reading the latest issue of the Activist (our 20 year anniversary issue) that includes an excellent article by Wes Jackson entitled Toward an Ignorance-based Worldview which he delivered at a conference with the same title. This from his invitation to that event:

"Imagine an ignorance-based science and technology in which
practitioners would be ever conscious that we are billions of times
more ignorant than knowledgeable and always will be."

He concludes his article with this:

"...maybe it's time to start with a certain amount of humility and
say we're fundamentally ignorant about the way minds change.
Acknowledging that we are fundamentally ignorant, we now can ask a
question that goes beyond the available answers, and that's going to
force knowledge out of its categories.

We would be fundamentally respectful of our original relationship
with the universe. There might even be a more joyful participation
in our engagement with the world."

There are teachers who recommend a "Way of Divine Ignorance" as a way to remain true to our priorly and always already native and actual condition.

See http://www.adidam.org/adida/religion/dhome.htm?go=wayignorance.htm where the following quote derives.

"The presumption of familiarity with objects and others is only a
product of the presumption of separateness from them. The movement
to "name" things and presume familiarity is based in fear of
unknowability or loss of control. But names are only superficial and
ultimately arbitrary.

Your native state of being is not separation, knowledge, or
familiarity, but the unknowability of simple Existence beyond fear
or contraction."

You will find reference to an excellent story for chidren at http://www.adidam.org/adida/teachings/dhome.htm?go=divineignorance.htm which helps us and them grow into stable and constant re-cognition of this fundamental and natural state or condition.

Here's text from the book on the subject:

An Excerpt from What, Where, When, How, Why, and Who To Remember To Be
Happy

Have you heard this is an apple? [Picture]
Have you been told this is a tree? [Picture]
Do you think this is the moon? [Picture] and this the sun?
[Picture]
Have you told someone this is a little girl? [Picture] and
this is a little boy? [Picture]
Well. But you and I can be very truthful to each other. And
it seems
to Me that, no matter what we name this or this or this or this or this
or this, we still do not know what they Are. Truly, you and I don't
know what even a single thing Is. Do you know what I Am? See? And I
don't know what you Are, either. It is a Mystery. Doesn't it make you
feel good to feel It?
Did you ever ask somebody where this or this or this came
from, or how
this or this or this came to be? Some say, "I don't know", and saying
this makes them feel they are being very honest and truthful. Others
say something such as "God made it", or "It comes from God". And such
people are also being very honest and truthful when they say this.
How can they both be telling the truth? Well, because they
are both
telling you the same thing in different ways. You see, nobody - not
Mom, or Dad, or Grandmother, or Grandfather, or big Sister, or big
Brother, or teachers, or doctors, or soldiers, or athletes, or lawyers,
or TV stars, or any people who are working, or any people who are
playing, not even a President, not even a King or a Queen, not even
people who love each other - nobody knows what even a single thing Is.
It is a great and more-than-wonderful Mystery to everyone that anything
is, or that we are. And whether somebody says "I don't know how
anything came to be" or "God made everything", they are simply pointing
to the feeling of the Mystery - of how everything is, but nobody knows
what it really Is, or how it came to be.
As long as you go on feeling this Mystery, you feel free and
full and
happy - and you feel and act free and full and happy to others. This is
the secret of being happy from the time you are small until the time
you are old.
Everybody - even all the animals - goes on living for a
while, and
then the part of them you see and touch and talk to every day when you
wake up goes to sleep in the feeling of the Mystery. This happens to
everybody. And everybody has to live every day without being afraid to
go to sleep. This can be difficult, even when you are small. Especially
because people sometimes forget the Mystery, and get unhappy, and try
to make others feel unhappy - by making them think things that make
them afraid and make them forget the Mystery.
So the way to keep on being happy every day until you go to
sleep is
to remember the Mystery. Just keep on remembering that you, with
everybody else, do not know what even a single thing Is - not even an
[apple].
Just remember this- or remember Real God, which is the same
thing.
Keep on remembering Real God as the Mystery, and you will feel happy
and act happy to others - and so you will keep on loving and helping
others, so the world won't get all afraid, and stupid, and unable to
sleep or play or work.
If you do this all the time, you will have lots of amazing and
more-than-wonderful experiences until you go back to sleep. And, if you
remember the Mystery even when you are going to sleep, then you will go
to sleep all happy in the Mystery. And you will always wake up in the
Mystery, too. And all your dreams will be about the Mystery, until you
wake up again.

"The conditional self Is Inherently (or Divinely) Ignorant. The
conditional self Is (Inherently, Always Already, and Cannot Ever Be
Else Than) knowledgeless, or Bereft and Free Of The Familiar (or the
known). Indeed, the conditional self (or conventional "I") Is
(itself) An Illusion Of knowledge (or Of Familiarity)--and, If The
Inherent (and Self-Evidently Divine) Condition Of Ignorance Is
Realized In any moment, the "knowledge" of body, mind, or
conditional "I" Is Replaced By The Mystery Of Inherently bodiless,
mindless, and selfless Being."

Kinda ups the ante on the whole subject of observation and meditation, too.

"As long as the individual is simply seeking, and has all kinds of
motivation, fascination with the search, this is not
understanding--this is dilemma itself. But where this dilemma is
understood, there is the re-cognition of a structure in the living
consciousness, a separation. And when that separation is observed
more and more directly, one begins to see that what one is suffering
is not something happening to one but it is one's own action. It is
as if you are pinching yourself, without being aware of it. You are
"creating" a subtle pain, and, worse than the pain, a continuous
modification, which is "mind", which the living consciousness
identifies as itself. The more one observes this, the more one's
search is abandoned, spontaneously, intelligently."

Long live ignorance! We'll never get beyond it, so let's get used to it...or, even, enlivened and enlightened by it... and on its basis may we all realize...

"...the truly adult capability to live intentionally as love in all
relations."

Anyway, my 2 or 3 cents worth. An interesting thread.

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