permaculture

["jamie nicol" <jamie@tiscali.fr>]

Hello Kirby,

I ought to point out that I began by affirming your position regarding
ethics and the role of exotics (though I might have toned down your 'no
exceptions', except that it is difficult to capture 'tone' via email) and
not the reverse - and I still do! Perhaps you thought I was Mark? However,
my point attempted to highlight a problem inherent in Pc that I thought
Steve was also suggesting and one we have had recently expressed on the list
by Frank. As I understood it, Frank was requesting ways from this group (as
he has been on and off for a year or more now) to implement Pc principles on
his farm of (roughly) 200 acres(?). I forget the size though it was quite
big from a European perspective. Despite receiving much good information
from many on this group, including you, his response seemed to be 'I want to
do it but I just don't have the time or the resources to implement such
techniques.' In my previous email I was trying to suggest that the
experience of Frank was not abnormal: here you have a man who is resolute
about Pc principles but unable to achieve them in the real world. Frank is
not 'industrial agriculture' to use your terminology. It is for this reason
that I'm not quite sure to what you were responding.

I certainly agree that 'industrial agriculture...is anathema to
permaculture' but does that also hold true of all large farms? Should larger
farms be broken up so Pc principles can be applied? What I'm after is a
similarly coherent Pc strategy on the large scale (within the resources of
current large farm owners) to that many of us practice on a small scale. If
we could come up with such a coherent structure we could then keep these
farmers away from the 'machine and influence peddling...corporations.'

 "Perhaps the only change we should be worried about is taking care of
ourselves." Perhaps. But then again perhaps not, I tend toward the Great
Vehicle - and Pc somewhere makes reference to care for others.

        I'd like to bring a point you made in another email (28th to Mark);

        >It's possible that one can have too much education to ever unlearn 
what
>they've picked up, hence the 72 hours of class time in a Pc course is meant
>to literally swamp one's boat, and rock one's world.  You're not supposed
to
>be able to take it all in, but it is supposed to make you look differently
>at the world.

Interesting analysis of a PDC, from what I understand sounds like a
classical form of brainwashing and the 72 hours would be about right too
<g>.


Jamie
Souscayrous





-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-admin@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Kirby Fry
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:44 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Exotic Plant Erradication

Jamie,

>>  While many of us, myself included, wander our 'acre' feeling a diffuse,
warm glow at the successful integration of PC, nature-centered ideas, the
large farms that produce nearly all the food consumed in the West and have
so damaged their environments, remain largely untouched (and possibly
untouchable) by PC in its current guise.  <<

Right, well before we toss aside our ethics (which still hold in my opinion,
no matter the scale) consider, that perhaps industrial agriculture as we
know it is untouchable because it is anathema to permaculture.  Industrial
ag is more the result of politics, designing around machines and influence
peddling on the part of corporations.

Perhaps the only change we should be worried about is taking care of
ourselves.

>>  How do we reach out and begin to make a change on these farms when
farmers are so squeezed for time and money as it is.  <<

Personally, I think it's too late, unless one wants to go into politics.
The aggies are the ones relentlessly destroying the land and will no doubt
continue to do so until some sort of crisis reaches a head.

Does anyone out there actually devote their time to influencing commercial /
industrial farmers?

The one area that could use our attention includes all of the family farms
going out of business and turning to CSA's for a new source of income.

>> Is PC a precious, suburban, faintly elitist movement that has much to say
but little practical to give these larger farms?  <<

Quite the contrary, the Pc movement is best suited for the rural, southern
hemisphere where people are the poorest.  It's not elitist at all.  As a
matter of fact, last time I spoke with Bill Mollison, North Vietnam was
working to make permaculture its national form of agriculture.


Kirby Fry

For the real scoop on environmental and social justice issues check out the
archives of Democracy Now!
http://www.webactive.com/webactive/pacifica/demnow/archive.html

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