Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["Kris Holstrom" <kholstrom@gmail.com>]

Seed source for comfrey

 

If you can't find anyone with plants to divide I have gotten beautiful healthy plants from Richters in Canada (richters.com). They also have seed.

 

Kris

 

On 5/18/06, livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org < livingontheland-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Permaculture Training in Western  Virginia (A Deville)
  2. Re: Greywater chemistry (Pat Meadows)
  3. Re: Greywater chemistry (BT Benjaminson)
  4. Re: Greywater chemistry (Barbara Fischer)
  5. Role in disease of e. coli (ECO FINCA)
  6. Re: Greywater chemistry (John Smith)
  7. Re: Humus - Understanding the Soil  Processes (Patricia Ruggiero)
  8. Re: Greywater chemistry (Patricia Ruggiero)
  9. Comfrey.  Was: Greywater chemistry (Patricia Ruggiero)
10. Re: Humus - Understanding the Soil  Processes (BT Benjaminson)
11. Re: Humus - Understanding the Soil Processes (ECO FINCA)
12. soil bacteria (ECO FINCA)
13. Re: Greywater chemistry (Pat Meadows)
14. Re: Comfrey. (BirdWalk)
15. Re: Role in disease of e. coli (Terry Wereb)
16. Re: Humus - Understanding the Soil  Processes (Terry Wereb)
17. Global Food Supply Near the Breaking Point (TradingPostPaul)
18. Re: Comfrey. (pete)
19. Re: Humus - Understanding the Soil Processes (ECO FINCA)
20. Re: Comfrey (TradingPostPaul)
21. Re: Humus - Understanding the Soil  Processes (TradingPostPaul)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:28:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: A Deville <dreadkali@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Permaculture Training in Western
       Virginia
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20060517172808.30580.qmail@web31513.mail.mud.yahoo.com"> 20060517172808.30580.qmail@web31513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Greetings Paul,
    I agree with your observations in reference to  Permaculture training and "Bill's" opposition to alot of the bull"  around these issues. "Bill Mollison" is my teacher/mentor and my  friend,and I know personaly that he is against these enormous fee for  Permaculture information,and some of the other negative routes that  others have taken, and as well have gone against the trueness of   what P.C is all about and that which "Bill" has taught, one of which is  to be of true service to the people! Its been taught and stresses by  "Bill" that people not affording the cost of instructions regardless be  given a percentage of slots for "free admission", and this was to  particular be directed towards "Native Americans, and" Third world"  perspective partiscipants! Few have adheared to this aspect when  attempting P.C courses, and for the most part out for only the doller.  Yet there are still those of  us around the globe whom continue to  share the knowledge of P.C  with
others at no cost(as i've been  doing for the last 20 years) or very nominal costs just to cover the  expenses. Caring for the land and its people as P.C exspouses,  certainly does not mean ripping them off; as many courses have done  doller wise.  And lastly> THE COST OF A   P.C   COURSE DOES  NOT  FOR  A  PERMACULTURIST   MAKE  !!!!!!!!!
Peace and Light............"Dee Deville" (Gaia Permaculture, Georgia

TradingPostPaul <tradingpost@riseup.net> wrote:
Anytime an advertisement for a permaculture course comes up, I'm  going to point out that it's only an ecological living philosophy, not  a how-to for a complete grower, not a route to fast, economical food  production for oneself, or a neighborhood, or a farmers market. Also  I'd point out that Mollison *lived* his philosophy for many years and  was a university professor, and has been seriously at odds with the  Americans who have tried to cash in on his work and name.

I  notice the cost is not revealed up front; it rarely is. The cost of  these weekend or weeklong seminars is out of reach for the millions of  poor and working class who need growing instruction the most.  Mollison's book is a lot cheaper.

paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
---------------
The  care of the Earth is our most ancient and most worthy, and after all  our most pleasing responsibility. To cherish what remains of it and to  foster its renewal is our only hope.
  - Wendell Berry
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/11/2006 at 6:49 AM P Corcoran wrote:

>Association for Regenerative Culture announces
>Permaculture Design Courses
>will be held near Roanoke, Virginia
>
>Fundamentals of Permaculture Design
>May 26 - June 3, 2006
>Permaculture Design Practicum
>July 21 - 29, 2006
>
>
>"Permanent agriculture" or "permanent culture," a term coined by
>Australians David Holmgren and Bill Mollison in the 1970s, describes a
>design system for creating human settlements that function in harmony with
>nature. Incorporating traditional knowledge, modern science, and the
>ecological patterns of the living world, permaculture design is applicable
>to farms, gardens, organizations, housing developments, towns and
>villages, or city neighborhoods.
>
>Instructors: Peter Bane is the publisher of ?Permaculture Activist.? Since
>1992 Peter has taught permaculture to over 700 students in locales from
>Canada to Patagonia. Last year he gave the closing keynote presentation to
>the 7th International Permaculture Convergence in Croatia.
>Keith Johnson was Director of Sonoma (California) Permaculture until 1997.
>For the past 10 years he has managed a design, consulting, and
>construction company specializing in masonry, rock walls, waterfalls,
>earth repair, food forestry, and runoff management.
>Dr. Lee Barnes received a Ph.D. in Environmental Horticulture from the
>University of Florida and has served as an agricultural extension agent
>for the state of North Carolina. He is a land stewardship consultant and a
>dowser who is passionate about bioregional and environmental education in
>the Southern Appalachians.
>Dave O?Neill is the owner and operator of Radical Roots Community Farm and
>the Director of the Arboretum at James Madison University in Harrisonburg,
>Virginia. Dave teaches permaculture design and organic gardening classes
>at Blue Ridge Community College and has experience in landscape design.
>
>For more information about the courses, including the course syllabus,
>tuition, and registration forms, go to:
>http://www.permacultureactivist.net/DesignCourse/PcSyllabus.htm,
>  or call (540) 344-5013.
>
>
>
>
>If you want one year of prosperity, grow grain.
>If you want ten years of prosperity, grow trees.
>If you want one hundred years of prosperity, grow people.
>
>Chinese Proverb
>
>
>
>
>Pamela Corcoran 540-344-5013


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Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland



---------------------------------
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:21:18 -0400
From: Pat Meadows <pat@meadows.pair.com>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Greywater chemistry
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <1omm621tcc8qilbc2omlr91ldl7ia3n1v9@4ax.com"> 1omm621tcc8qilbc2omlr91ldl7ia3n1v9@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Wed, 17 May 2006 09:58:49 -0600, you wrote:

>
>Here's a suggestion: use it to fertilize grass to be composted and later worked into the food garden.
>

You could use it to fertilize comfrey and then make compost
from the comfrey.  Comfrey is supposed to make great
compost, plus it grows big.

Comfrey either is or is not safe to eat, depending on what
you read.  (Probably not - it can cause liver cancer
apparently - eating comfrey is not worth risking liver
cancer.)  But all seem to agree that it's great for compost.

I don't have a comfrey plant, but I'm going to get one soon.

Pat
--
Gardening in northern Pennsylvania.

Eat local food, change the world for the better!


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:02:29 +0200
From: BT Benjaminson < btbenj@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Greywater chemistry
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
       < livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <136901c679e4$721e2380$e81b8a59@IBM1202198FE3E>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
       reply-type=original

Scott,  Pat
Joe Jenkins, the author of the Humanure Handbook, is one of the heroes from
my early days of waking up to eco-living.
I read his book (I think) three times, but skipped the greywater section
because it wasn't relevant for me then. The book is quite funny besides
being quite serious. He makes a distasteful subject humorous so people can
bear to read about it and get that important information.

I've been following Joe's humanure composting advice for about five years
now and have carefully grown many delicious veggies with the
results--generally I do try to cook the veggies though.
No one uses our "system" except my family, (in general most people are not
brave enough to try it) and my family is basically quite healthy (may they
stay that way) and so I am not so worried about germs of terrible diseases
lurking in the compost heap.

I only wish that when I mention this practice to people I know that someone
would say "what a great idea!" and run out and buy the book. Most just
giggle and change the subject... : (

Anyway, I took the book off the shelf and I see even my older edition does
have some pretty good ideas for greywater systems. I'll start working on the
ones that seem best for us.
Thanks!
Bat-Tzion
Negev, Israel


----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Berkey" <berkeyscott@hotmail.com>
To: "'Healthy soil and sustainable growing'"
<livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Greywater chemistry


>
> I've read the Humanure Handbook and it's quite a fascinating read, very
> entertaining actually.  In my small circle of friends and family; however,
> I
> seem to be the only one open to trying the idea of compost human manure.
> Everyone else is just too squeamish.
>
> If I remember correctly, the author had his completed compost analyzed
> regularly and it always appeared safe for application to a vegetable
> garden
> - but even he used it for landscaping and other non-food producing
> purposes.
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:22:25 -0500
From: "Barbara Fischer" <cen12205@centurytel.net >
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Greywater chemistry
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org >
Message-ID: <003001c679e7$3afcf360$6500a8c0@BarbaraFischer>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Don't believe all the "bad" things you hear about comfrey.  I grow it and
feed it to my goats.  it is toxic only in large amts.  I also use it as a
wrap for sprained ankles, etc on me or the goats.  Great stuff, wouldn't be
without it.  I do grow it here in AR in a tub though as it tends to get out
of hand.  At my farm in Illinois it just grows in the garden.  I am thinking
this year I will have to pull it back some.

Barbara
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Meadows" < pat@meadows.pair.com>
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
<livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Greywater chemistry


> On Wed, 17 May 2006 09:58:49 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Here's a suggestion: use it to fertilize grass to be composted and later
worked into the food garden.
> >
>
> You could use it to fertilize comfrey and then make compost
> from the comfrey.  Comfrey is supposed to make great
> compost, plus it grows big.
>
> Comfrey either is or is not safe to eat, depending on what
> you read.  (Probably not - it can cause liver cancer
> apparently - eating comfrey is not worth risking liver
> cancer.)  But all seem to agree that it's great for compost.
>
> I don't have a comfrey plant, but I'm going to get one soon.
>
> Pat
> --
> Gardening in northern Pennsylvania.
>
> Eat local food, change the world for the better!
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:28:24 +0000
From: "ECO FINCA" < ecofinca@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Livingontheland] Role in disease of e. coli
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY107-F35285A02833CC24DB3AF9CC5A10@phx.gbl"> BAY107-F35285A02833CC24DB3AF9CC5A10@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli

E C O
http://spaces.msn.com/ecofinca/
http://humano.ya.com/ecofinca/




----Original Message Follows----
From: Terry Wereb < frosted-acres@sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
<livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org >
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Greywater chemistry
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:53:08 -0700 (PDT)

umm, Pat, there is ALWAYS 'E.coli' in soil,and is as
common as the air you breath.  They do not get into
the plants unless there is an injury to the plant--
hence the importance of a simple "washing" before
eating. Salmonella needs animal tissue to survive and
grow to harmfull numbers. Most salmonella cases are
transmitted by poor preparation practices in the
kitchen.

Terry-- I firmly believe in the 5 second rule-- after
5 seconds, rinse, then eat!!!

--- Pat Meadows <pat@meadows.pair.com> wrote:
>
> Recognizing that I am probably over-cautious:  yes,
> I think
> there might be a problem with it.  If there are
> fecal or
> other harmful bacteria in the gray water, and there
> might be
> (from laundry), then I think it might be a problem.
> There
> might be bacteria in kitchen waste too; salmonella
> or
> something.
>
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_________________________________________________________________
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http://astrocentro.msn.es/



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:42:09 +0300
From: "John Smith" <mikakigr@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Greywater chemistry
To: "Healthy soil and sustainable growing"
       < livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
       <76dd15ec0605171342j3af3df0bg826ccd473b290098@mail.gmail.com">76dd15ec0605171342j3af3df0bg826ccd473b290098@mail.gmail.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Sorry Pat, my question was totally tongue in cheek. I thought that there was
such a difference between the numbers of bacteria present in laundry water
and manure. I take the point about human and carnivore wastes. I've read
about humanure and it seems fascinating (not that I will be trying it...) E.
coli, I think, is present in all human intestines but is very harmful if it
gets into our food or water. Another half serious question is what about
humanure provided by vegetarians? I should think that water which has been
used as bathwater would be quite  safe. I'm not so sure about any other
water - you would have to tell your household not to use bleach and other
harsh chemicals - (washing machines etc) - wouldn't want all that on my
organic veg! lol.

On 5/17/06, Pat Meadows < pat@meadows.pair.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 May 2006 23:47:45 +0300, you wrote:
>
> >Maybe the manure we put on crops also has a couple of bacteria in it?
> >
>
> I'm sure it does.  But in the Western World, we don't use
> (untreated) human manure on crops.  We don't use dog and cat
> manure in our compost or on our crops either, because they
> are subject to parasites that humans can also get.
>
> In Asia, where untreated human manure *is* used on crops,
> they don't eat the vegetables raw - they always cook them.
>
> Ken has said that BT's plan is safe, so that's good.  I was
> - as I said - being very cautious.
>
> Cheers,
> Pat
> --
> Gardening in northern Pennsylvania.
>
> Eat local food, change the world for the better!
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:22:06 -0400
From: "Patricia Ruggiero" <ruggierop@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding the Soil
       Processes
To: "'Healthy soil and sustainable growing'"
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org >
Message-ID: <003a01c679de$ce24b2d0$ec2ef804@g9tfz>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Marty wrote:
> How can I visually identify humus in my garden, compost piles or wooded
area? I thought it was that rich black looking stuff after compost breaks
down. I'm not so sure now.


That's what I think it is.  I will be interested to learn more.

Pat



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:31:35 -0400
From: "Patricia Ruggiero" <ruggierop@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Greywater chemistry
To: "'Healthy soil and sustainable growing'"
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <004701c679e0$21bbf880$ec2ef804@g9tfz >
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

After which you will have more than you dreamed possible.
Pat R. (who wishes you were nearby to take some of my comfrey)

Pat M. wrote
> I don't have a comfrey plant, but I'm going to get one soon.



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:00:43 -0400
From: "Patricia Ruggiero" < ruggierop@earthlink.net>
Subject: [Livingontheland] Comfrey.  Was: Greywater chemistry
To: "'Healthy soil and sustainable growing'"
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org >
Message-ID: <009401c67a27$41afeec0$ec2ef804@g9tfz>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Barbara wrote:

>  I also use it as a wrap for sprained ankles,

Do you put a fresh leaf on the affected area, or have you made some ointment
or other preparation that you keep on hand for injuries?

Pat



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 05:03:51 +0200
From: BT Benjaminson < btbenj@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding the Soil
       Processes
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
       < livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <14dd01c67a27$b10ab520$e81b8a59@IBM1202198FE3E>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
       reply-type=original

Patricia
Besides what you see in finished compost, I think humus in the soil is the
stuff that makes soil a little sticky even if the soil is made larger grain
sizes than clay.

Here's my question to the list
I think that stickiness is one of the properties that keep nutrients from
leaching out but still makes them chemically available to plant roots. My
limited understanding of this process is that the plant nutrients are in the
form of ions that carry electrical charges. These ions are weakly bonded to
the surface of a microscopic clump of humus. Plant roots capture and take in
the nutrients they need from the humus surface. The plant root hair puts out
an ion that bonds more strongly to the nutrient than the bond it had onto
the humus clump. The root hair ion captures the heart of the nutrient ion,
if you will, and somehow (mysteriously to me) draws it in to the root like a
bride going to her new home.

Please, anyone out there, can you correct and amplify on this? I've been
carrying around this (almost certainly flawed) understanding for years and
I'd just love to know more about it at a level I can understand.

Bat-Tzion
Negev, Israel


----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Ruggiero" <ruggierop@earthlink.net>
To: "'Healthy soil and sustainable growing'"
< livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding the Soil Processes


> Marty wrote:
>> How can I visually identify humus in my garden, compost piles or wooded
> area? I thought it was that rich black looking stuff after compost breaks
> down. I'm not so sure now.
>
>
> That's what I think it is.  I will be interested to learn more.
>
> Pat
>
>


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:51:00 +0000
From: "ECO FINCA" <ecofinca@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding the Soil
       Processes
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY107-F27BD5B29B72B8BE0AF0858C5A60@phx.gbl"> BAY107-F27BD5B29B72B8BE0AF0858C5A60@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

This link can contribute to know a little more about humus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humus


E C O
http://spaces.msn.com/ecofinca/
http://humano.ya.com/ecofinca/




----Original Message Follows----
From: BT Benjaminson <btbenj@netvision.net.il>
Reply-To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
< livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding the Soil  Processes
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 05:03:51 +0200

Patricia
Besides what you see in finished compost, I think humus in the soil is the
stuff that makes soil a little sticky even if the soil is made larger grain
sizes than clay.

Here's my question to the list
I think that stickiness is one of the properties that keep nutrients from
leaching out but still makes them chemically available to plant roots. My
limited understanding of this process is that the plant nutrients are in the
form of ions that carry electrical charges. These ions are weakly bonded to
the surface of a microscopic clump of humus. Plant roots capture and take in
the nutrients they need from the humus surface. The plant root hair puts out
an ion that bonds more strongly to the nutrient than the bond it had onto
the humus clump. The root hair ion captures the heart of the nutrient ion,
if you will, and somehow (mysteriously to me) draws it in to the root like a
bride going to her new home.

Please, anyone out there, can you correct and amplify on this? I've been
carrying around this (almost certainly flawed) understanding for years and
I'd just love to know more about it at a level I can understand.

Bat-Tzion
Negev, Israel


----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Ruggiero" <ruggierop@earthlink.net>
To: "'Healthy soil and sustainable growing'"
<livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding the Soil Processes


> Marty wrote:
>> How can I visually identify humus in my garden, compost piles or wooded
> area? I thought it was that rich black looking stuff after compost breaks
> down. I'm not so sure now.
>
>
> That's what I think it is.  I will be interested to learn more.
>
> Pat
>
>
_______________________________________________
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Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland

_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:56:34 +0000
From: "ECO FINCA" <ecofinca@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Livingontheland] soil bacteria
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY107-F1070B1633417C6432D6BEBC5A60@phx.gbl">BAY107-F1070B1633417C6432D6BEBC5A60@phx.gbl >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed


Bacteria

Bacteria are single-celled organisms, and are the most numerous denizens of
the soil, with populations ranging from 100 million to 3 billion in a gram.

They are capable of very rapid reproduction by binary fission (dividing into
two) in favourable conditions.

One bacterium is capable of producing 16 million more in just 24 hours.

Most soil bacteria live in close proximity to plant roots and are often
referred to as rhizobacteria.

Bacteria live in soil water, including the film of moisture surrounding soil
particles, and some are able to swim by means of flagella.

The majority of the beneficial soil-dwelling bacteria need oxygen (and are
thus termed aerobic bacteria), whilst those that do not require air are
referred to as anaerobic, and tend to cause putrefaction of dead organic
matter.

Aerobic bacteria are most active in a soil that is moist (but not saturated,
as this will deprive aerobic bacteria of the air that they require), and
neutral soil pH, and where there is plenty of food (carbohydrates and
micronutrients from organic matter) available.

Hostile conditions will not completely kill bacteria; rather, the bacteria
will stop growing and get into a dormant stage, or may mutate to adapt to
the new conditions.

Gram positive bacteria produce spores in order to wait for more favourable
circumstances, and Gram negative bacteria gets into a "nonculturable" stage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_life



E C O
http://spaces.msn.com/ecofinca/
http://humano.ya.com/ecofinca/

_________________________________________________________________
Grandes ?xitos, superh?roes, imitaciones, cine y TV...
http://es.msn.kiwee.com/ Lo mejor para tu m?vil.



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:22:07 -0400
From: Pat Meadows <pat@meadows.pair.com >
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Greywater chemistry
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: < 0npo6210gc7smtfjbr54nli4il1bfgc8rj@4ax.com">0npo6210gc7smtfjbr54nli4il1bfgc8rj@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Wed, 17 May 2006 14:31:35 -0400, you wrote:

>After which you will have more than you dreamed possible.
>Pat R. (who wishes you were nearby to take some of my comfrey)
>

I'll have to be careful with it!  Very careful....

Pat
--
Gardening in northern Pennsylvania.

Eat local food, change the world for the better!


------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:55:59 -0500
From: "BirdWalk" <birdwalk@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Comfrey.
To: "'Healthy soil and sustainable growing'"
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
       <20060518135556.126A237017E@relay02.roc.ny.frontiernet.net"> 20060518135556.126A237017E@relay02.roc.ny.frontiernet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"

Anyone know a seed source?

TIA

[have determined it is same as the forage crop, so should be easily
available, but not here]


>  I also use it as a wrap for sprained ankles,

Do you put a fresh leaf on the affected area, or have you made some ointment
or other preparation that you keep on hand for injuries?




------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:26:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Wereb <frosted-acres@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Role in disease of e. coli
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: < 20060518132632.75941.qmail@web81811.mail.mud.yahoo.com">20060518132632.75941.qmail@web81811.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Very interesting article, however...

It does NOT adress the presence of E. coli in our
soils--
All mammals harbor E.coli. It is IN the soils as a
matter of "elimination" no matter WHERE one lives.

Using E. coli as a POLLUTION INDICATOR is just a
matter of convenience.  In areas of agricultural
activity, the people who take the water samples are
basically looking for RUNOFF, not the E. coli that is
normally present in soil-- it tends to stay put!


NewFarm has an interesting article on composting-- and
how E coli levels are quite low in the runoff when
certain composting procedures are used.


http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/2006/0413/compost.shtml


E. coli is here to stay-- and as long as certain
events do NOT happen, we need not fear it. People so
much want to blame some one or something for their
lack of common sense. e Coli  will not get into a
plant unles the plant is damaged- breaking its "skin"
so to speak. Large numbers of E coli CPUs found after
an 'event' is from runoff-- there are low CPUs in
groundwater-- in other words-- well water!

Terry W



--- ECO FINCA <ecofinca@hotmail.com> wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Wereb < frosted-acres@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding the Soil
       Processes
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
       < livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20060518133950.36543.qmail@web81815.mail.mud.yahoo.com">20060518133950.36543.qmail@web81815.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Your understanding if the nutrient exchange is
correct. The only "flaw" I can see is that you have
put in a nutsehell, the main idea behind soil
chemistry!! The writers of all those "Dry" textbooks
and research papers will need to find other work!!
Your understanding is an excellent point to  jump off
into a deeper understanding--

the electical bonding charge of clay is such that it
may biond with  several small nutrient atoms, or they
may actually get "bumped off" ( leaching!!!) by fewer,
stronger atoms. Hydrogen ions play an important role
in this-- they affect the pH as well as the ability of
nuttrients to bond  with the clay particles.

When we do soil testing, we use something to break
the bonds so that the nutrients become available to
the reagents. Any soil testing, other than temperature
done without the use of distilled water and a breaking
agent is suspect. The results will not be totally
accurate.

Terry W

--- BT Benjaminson <btbenj@netvision.net.il> wrote:

> Please, anyone out there, can you correct and
> amplify on this? I've been
> carrying around this (almost certainly flawed)
> understanding for years and
> I'd just love to know more about it at a level I can
> understand.
>
> Bat-Tzion
> Negev, Israel
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patricia Ruggiero" <ruggierop@earthlink.net>
> To: "'Healthy soil and sustainable growing'"
> <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding
> the Soil Processes
>
>
> > Marty wrote:
> >> How can I visually identify humus in my garden,
> compost piles or wooded
> > area? I thought it was that rich black looking
> stuff after compost breaks
> > down. I'm not so sure now.
> >
> >
> > That's what I think it is.  I will be interested
> to learn more.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:12:33 -0600
From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net >
Subject: [Livingontheland] Global Food Supply Near the Breaking Point
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <200605180912330430.1798CDFB@mail.gilanet.com"> 200605180912330430.1798CDFB@mail.gilanet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"


Shifting from a global food production system to local food for local people would go a long way towards addressing inequity, Qualman believes.  "The 100-mile diet, where people obtain their food from within a 100-mile radius of their homes, makes good sense for most of the world".  The whole fabric of the food production system needs to change, or hunger and malnutrition will only get much worse.

Global Food Supply Near the Breaking Point
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33268
Wednesday, May 17 2006 @ 10:35 AM PDT

BROOKLIN, Canada, May 17 (IPS) - The world is now eating more food than farmers grow, pushing global grain stocks to their lowest level in 30 years.

Rising population, water shortages, climate change, and the growing costs of fossil fuel-based fertilisers point to a calamitous shortfall in the world's grain supplies in the near future, according to Canada's National Farmers Union (NFU).

Thirty years ago, the oceans were teeming with fish, but today more people rely on farmers to produce their food than ever before, says Stewart Wells, NFU's president.

In five of the last six years, global population ate significantly more grains than farmers produced.

And with the world's farmers unable to increase food production, policymakers must address the "massive challenges to the ability of humanity to continue to feed its growing numbers", Wells said in a statement.

There isn't much land left on the planet that can be converted into new food-producing areas, notes Lester Brown, president of the Earth Policy Institute, a Washington-based non-governmental organisation. And what is left is of generally poor quality or likely to turn into dust bowls if heavily exploited, Brown told IPS.

Unlike the Green Revolution in the 1960s, when improved strains of wheat, rice, maize and other cereals dramatically boosted global food production, there are no technological magic bullets waiting in the wings.

"Biotechnology has made little difference so far," he said.

Even if the long-promised biotech advances in drought, cold, and disease-resistance come about in the next decade, they will boost yields little more than five percent globally, Brown said.

"There's not nearly enough discussion about how people will be fed 20 years from now," he said.

Hunger is already a stark and painful reality for more than 850 million people, including 300 million children. How can the number of hungry not explode when one, two and possibly three billion more people are added to the global population?

The global food system needs fixing and fast, says Darrin Qualman, NFU's research director.

"Many Canadian and U.S. farmers are going out of business because crop prices are at their lowest in nearly 100 years," Qualman said in an interview. "Farmers are told overproduction is to blame for the low prices they've been forced to accept in recent years."

However, most North American agribusiness corporations posted record profits in 2004. With only five major companies controlling the global grain market, there is a massive imbalance of power, he said.

"The food production system is designed to generate profits, not produce food or nutrition for people," Qualman told IPS.

He says there are enormous amounts of food stored in central Canada's farming heartland, but thousands of people there, including some farm families, are forced to rely on food banks.

"It's a system that's perfectly happy to leave hundreds of millions of people unfed," he said.

Inequity and poverty are at the heart of the hunger problem, according to experts, including the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO).

Economic inequity is becoming more widespread, with hunger and malnutrition a chronic problem for the poor in both the South and the North, says Brown.

And the present situation is likely to worsen with climate change.

An estimated 184 million people in Africa alone could die from floods, famine, drought and conflict resulting from climate change before the end of the century, according to a new report by Christian Aid, a British-based charity.

Millions more in other parts of the world will also perish, and recent gains in reducing poverty could be thrown into reverse in coming decades, said the report, "Climate of Poverty: Facts, Fears and Hopes".

"This is a grave crisis for global society and we need global solutions," said Andrew Pendleton, climate and development analyst at Christian Aid.

In the "Hope" section of the report, the group envisions poor regions using renewable energy to power a new, and clean, era of prosperity.

Another vision is already making a difference in villages in 10 African countries. With some money to buy better seeds, fertiliser, a share in a protected water source, and a bed net to fend off malarial mosquitoes, hundreds of thousands of villagers in the Millennium Villages project are now able to grow enough food and sell the surplus.

Developed by Jeffrey Sachs and others at Columbia University's Earth Institute and the U.N. Millennium Project, each project is led by local community members using proven, practical, low-cost technologies.

Making a substantial difference in Africa's food security and poverty issues means development assistance to spread the project to the more than 100,000 villages in Africa, organisers have said.

That kind of frontal assault on poverty, along with population stabilisation and sharp reductions in greenhouse gas emissions that are causing climate change, top Brown's list of what needs to be done immediately.

Shifting from a global food production system to local food for local people would go a long way towards addressing inequity, Qualman believes.

"The 100-mile diet, where people obtain their food from within a 100-mile radius of their homes, makes good sense for most of the world," he said.

The whole fabric of the food production system needs to change, or hunger and malnutrition will only get much worse.

"North America's industrial-style agricultural system is a really bad idea and maybe the worst on the planet," Qualman concluded.






------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:10:34 +0100
From: pete <pete.rout@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Comfrey.
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
       <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060518160825.019c0f30@virgin.net"> 7.0.1.0.0.20060518160825.019c0f30@virgin.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
       x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2B325BC7

I don't know if you can get it in the US but bocking14 is the
best.  It doesn't seed as much as the others.  Be careful as comfrey
can take over your plot.  It is normally purchased as small root cuttings.
Pete



>Anyone know a seed source?
>
>TIA
>
>[have determined it is same as the forage crop, so should be easily
>available, but not here]
>
>
> >  I also use it as a wrap for sprained ankles,
>
>Do you put a fresh leaf on the affected area, or have you made some ointment
>or other preparation that you keep on hand for injuries?
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Livingontheland mailing list
> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.0/341 - Release Date: 16/05/2006
>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.0/341 - Release Date: 16/05/2006


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.0/341 - Release Date: 16/05/2006




------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:22:09 +0000
From: "ECO FINCA" <ecofinca@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding the Soil
       Processes
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY107-F2269A497AB23ADAB2FD779C5A60@phx.gbl">BAY107-F2269A497AB23ADAB2FD779C5A60@phx.gbl >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

Uncovering the real dirt
http://www.sdnotill.com/Newsletters/Real%20Dirt.pdf



E C O
http://spaces.msn.com/ecofinca/
http://humano.ya.com/ecofinca/

_________________________________________________________________
Descubre la descarga digital con MSN Music. M?s de un mill?n de canciones.
http://music.msn.es/



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:33:33 -0600
From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Comfrey
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <200605180933330180.17AC06E1@mail.gilanet.com">200605180933330180.17AC06E1@mail.gilanet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Compare these

http://www.horizonherbs.com/comfrey-root.html

"Note:  If you are interested in comfrey, we only have the root presently.  We sell this root from our sister site at Herb Roots .com.  Comfrey is easier to grow from root anyway, as opposed to having to start from seed."
http://www.sandmountainherbs.com/comfrey_common.html

Comfrey usually does not produce seed, and plants obtained from seed are very often inferior. Rooted divisions are planted out in the spring.
www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Symphytum_peregrinum.html

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/c/comfre92.html
http://www.richters.com/progrow.cgi?search=Comfrey&cart_id=14660.523

paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
---------------
The care of the Earth is our most ancient and most worthy, and after all our most pleasing responsibility. To cherish what remains of it and to foster its renewal is our only hope.
  - Wendell Berry

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/18/2006 at 8:55 AM BirdWalk wrote:

>Anyone know a seed source?
>
>TIA
>
>[have determined it is same as the forage crop, so should be easily
>available, but not here]
>




------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:53:12 -0600
From: "TradingPostPaul" < tradingpost@riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Humus - Understanding the Soil
       Processes
To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: < 200605180953120852.17BE06F9@mail.gilanet.com">200605180953120852.17BE06F9@mail.gilanet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"


That .pdf file is a winner, folks. I've saved it. Thanks.

paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
---------------

The outstanding scientific discovery of the twentieth century is not television, or radio, but rather the complexity of the land organism. Only those who know the most about it can appreciate how little we know about it.
  - Aldo Leopold in  Round River, 1933
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/18/2006 at 3:22 PM ECO FINCA wrote:

>Uncovering the real dirt
> http://www.sdnotill.com/Newsletters/Real%20Dirt.pdf
>
>
>
>E C O
>http://spaces.msn.com/ecofinca/
> http://humano.ya.com/ecofinca/
>




------------------------------

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End of Livingontheland Digest, Vol 41, Issue 4
**********************************************

-- 
Kris