Homestead mailing list

[Bill Jones <billj AT harborside.com>]

SISU! wrote:

> Bill Jones wrote:
>  
>
> > Actually I looked into this question years ago.  I wondered if 
> > anything can be done with conifer waste, other than spreading it in 
> > the paths to kill weeds.  And other than whittling and a fun homemade
> > soap, I found the answer is no.  Even if not for the turpentine and 
> > rosin, the lignin molecule of conifers cannot be digested by fungi, 
> > and doesn't break down into healthy soil.  That's why the land under 
> > them is barren except for a few specialists.
> >    
>
> ?????  What the heck kind of conifers do you have?  From my memory, it
> is mostly Douglas Fir and Sitka Spruce out there, and maybe some short
> stubby pine that I don't know the name of..grows near the ocean.
> Still, Bill, I'm not getting your argument.  ALL plant material will
> compost, even conifers.
ALL plant material will compost if you grind it fine and mix in enough 
manure, but will the result leave "humus", and who has a huge quantity 
of manure to mix with pine needles?  Apparently much less humus results 
from hot, bacterial composting than with slower fungal methods of 
composting.

There are three common types of lignin (and many other more specific 
ones).  The people at LaVal U. seem to think that dry grass, hardwood 
chips, and softwood chips break down differently (i. e., they tested 
countless samples of soil mixed with various types of sheet composting 
materials and analyzed the evolution of both the material left behind 
and the soil leachates).  They found that grass lignin breaks down 
quickly to form humus, resulting in a brown soil, but that the humus 
doesn't persist for very long in soil thereafter.  Conifer lignin takes 
forever to break down, but when it does it produces compounds toxic to 
most plants, and little persisting humus.  Hardwood lignin breaks down 
into healthy soil at a moderate rate, if I recall, but the abundant 
humic compounds that result are purported to have half-lives of 1000 
years in the soil!

>  You think Georgia doesn't have pines and other
> conifers??  Please.  They don't call it Georgia-Pacific for nothing.  We
> got Yellow Pine and other types of conifers everywhere.  There's cedar,
> hemlocks and even some Frazier Firs.  It all contains turpentine and
> resins, and it all composts.  It's acidic, sure, but you neutralize the
> acidity with other materials.
The folks at LaVal U. tell us that 20% of softwood materials can be 
added to the twig chip mixture they recommend for sheet composting.  But 
we have way more than that around here.  It does make a good soap...

It's more to the point that _we_ don't have many hardwoods in most 
places, especially on high ground.  Last fall I went looking for a solid 
grove of alders from which I could extract some mycelial inoculant from 
the leaf litter, and found none despite searching far and wide.  Is it 
that difficult for YOU to find a patch of deciduous leaf litter?  I'd 
have been better off down in the salmonberry patch that I'm clearing 
away for the new pasture.

I once heard an anecdote from a fellow who was growing tomatoes using a 
mulch of cypress.  It turned out he had solid chalk in Spain.  It's 
interesting to hear that nightshades, of all things, thrive in 
well-limed softwood materials, but I always wondered if his success 
continued, and which other plants could be grown that way.  It's a great 
research project for anyone with the time, but I'm usually growing them 
the best way I know how, rather than experimenting with the unknown.

> As for a reason nothing grows under your
> conifers....it's probably a shading issue or foraging by non-native
> species or something like an overpopulation of deer.  Oregon, and
> especially the Coast Range, is one of the "greenest" places I have ever
> seen, and I am just having a hard time understanding your argument over
> the soil.
It's green from shrubs, and trees, and in the understory, but just not 
on cleared spots without groundwater in summer, which is most places not 
sporting those useless firs.

> It's too dry for grasses...too many conifers for much
> sylviculture
Well, if you can eat wood, or the pinon pine or Italian pine thrives 
near you, or you own a sawmill, you might find a use for them.  I'm 
already satisfied with the amount of that great commodity known as 
"shade" that they provide.  :)

> , and what else....hmmm, I can't remember....oh yeah,
> conifers don't build the soil because of the lignin.  You are wrong in
> that there is no fungus that produces the right enzymes.  Check this
> page out:
> http://compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/lignin.html
>  
That's a good paper.  Here's an except:

> In this same study, the increase in lignin degradation of hemlock pulp 
> with 0.12% supplemental nitrogen was only 2.2% to 3.9%, and additional 
> nitrogen did not provide further benefit. The differences between 
> plant species is likely related to differences in lignin structure, 
> with gymnosperm lignin composed of coniferyl alcohols, angiosperm 
> lignin composed of both coniferyl and sinapyl alcohols, and grass 
> lignin of coniferyl, sinapyl, and p -coumaryl alcohols (Ladisch et 
> al., 1983).

Apparently there are special fungi that deal with conifer lignin, but 
still without producing healthy soil.  The LaVal folks seem to think 
that conifers deliberately toxify their soil to prevent competition

> It seems to me, that the problem with the natural conifer forest floor
> is that it is basically an anaerobic environment.  Aeration is the key.
>
>
>  If it were otherwise then anyone could have a grand
>  
>
> > garden just by dumping on fir needles, as I once envisioned.
> >    
>
> No one said it would be easy.  It's gonna take a lot of work and nothing
> is going to happen overnight, but it is possible, I think.
>
>
>  
>
> > My galfriend places no faith in her barren pasture at all, and gives 
> > her sheep a big bowl of Lamb-Gro twice a day each.  Fortunately I'm 
> > in no such position.
> >    
>
> ???  Now you've really lost me. :)  Are you now saying that you don't
> have to feed because you have a green pasture???
>  

Yes indeed!!!!!  Didn't I say that?  I was just interested in Tvo's post 
about sylviculture because around here it seems that something other 
than clearing high ground to produce a brown pasture might be in order 
(what most people have).

Bill
S. Oregon coast