Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Jason Hare <jaihare AT gmail.com>]

John,

You're asking for a systematization that would be unfaithful to
reality. It is the case that $fBaR /shavar/ means "he broke" and
$iBB"R /shiber/ means "he shattered," but that's really not
representative of how things happen in the verb system. You cannot put
any shoresh in any binyan and come up with some kind of magical system
like this. It just doesn't work. Some words appear in the qal. Some
words appear in the niphal. Some appear in piel. Some appear in other
binyanim. You have to learn words *as they appear* and not force them
into a system that is artificial.

For example, we would assume that pual is always the passive of piel,
but what about QiBB"L, which takes it passive in hitpael (HiTQaBB"L)?
Why don't we say QuBBaLTiY /kubalti/ to university? Rather, we say
HiTQaBBaLTiY /hitkabalti/. That's just how it is. We cannot force the
word into a contrived system.

My suggestion is that you learn words as you find them rather than
creating a system and trying to squeeze the words into it. You're
really seeking to go at it backwards. Learn the words and extrapolate
generalities about the binyanim. Don't try to get a grip on the system
and then examine every word in light of the system. It's just
backwards (though many learn "dead languages" this way, for some
reason).

Regards,
Jason Hare

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 1:43 AM, Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com> wrote:
> I guess I need to ask my question a different way.
> By "how to translate" I mean I want to know the voice and form, plus a
> sample translation
> So for the "big 7" you would have:
> Qal: Active, Simple - "Bob broke it"
> Nifal: Passive, Simple - "Bob was broken"
> Piel: Active, Intensive - "Bob REALLY broke it"
> Pual: Passive, Intensive - "Bob was REALLY broken"
> Hifil: Active, Causative - "Bob was made to brake it"
> Hofal: Passive, Causative - "Bob was made to be broken"
> Hitpael: Reflexive - "Bob made himself broken"
>
> So, can someone do the same for the "mystery" stems:
> qal passive, pilel, tifil, polpal, hotpaal, hishtafel, and nitpael
>
> If any are the same as one of the "big 7", then just indicate that.
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> B"H
> John Steven
>
>
> Jason Hare wrote:
>
> John,
>
> I have a feeling you're going to continue to be disappointed in your
> wait. What you're asking is how to translate FORMS, but forms do not
> have translations. You cannot translate the hiphil form into English.
> It doesn't *mean* anything. You need to ask a question about a
> specific word that's found in the form in the Tanakh. That's a much
> better question.
>
> We can translate words based on (1) form, (2) context and (3) other
> uses of the same word in different contexts. We cannot translate a
> form itself into English. I don't understand the problem. Perhaps it's
> one of exposure. You need to start exposing yourself to actual WORDS
> in Hebrew as they fall into these various forms. Once you read these
> forms (binyanim) with actual roots and context, it will make sense to
> you.
>
> I believe that all serious grammars of ivrit mikra'it (Biblical
> Hebrew) treat these minor binyanim at some point. I'm sure they give
> examples and context for each one. I don't have a biblical Hebrew
> grammar with me at the moment, but if you look through whichever one
> you have, I'm sure you can find references. Maybe someone here can
> provide a reference for you.
>
> Essentially, what I'm saying is that you should not ask how to
> translate a binyan, since that doesn't even make sense. נכנס /nichnas/
> NKNS is a niphal form meaning "he entered," which translates nothing
> like נאכל /ne'echal/ N'KL "it was eaten." There is no standard
> translation for a binyan. It depends on the root and the meaning in a
> given context. I hope this makes sense to you.
>
> Regards,
> Jason Hare
> Rehovot, Israel
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> Still waiting for an answer to how to translate the following forms, and
> if any are the same as the "big 7":
> qal passive, pilel, tifil, polpal, hotpaal, hishtafel, and nitpael
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> B"H
> John Steven
>
> "He who makes a mistake is still our friend; he who adds to or shortens
> a melody is still our friend; but he who violates a rhythm unawares can
> no longer be our friend."
> -Ishaq Ibn Ibrahim 767-850 CE.
>
> "If you don't behave as you believe, you will end by believing as you
> behave."
> -Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
>
> "The difference between the intelligent man and the simpleton is not the
> correctness of their decisions, but rather the cunning sinner can more
> skillfully defend and justify his iniquity."
> - Rabbi Tovia Singer