Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>]

Bryant,

Here is a slight variation.

ET HAKOL (ASAH YAPEH B-(ITO, "he did all [including man] perfectly".  
GAM, "moreover". ET HA-(OLAM NATAN B-LIBAM, "He put in their hearts  
the power to know the world" [In other words, he gave them the gift  
of science]. Yet limited so that man will never be able to understand  
[uncover] God's deeds in their entirety.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Nov 1, 2007, at 11:49 PM, Bryant J. Williams III wrote:

> Dear Martin,
>
> I am using the full text you sent to Brian.
>
> First, thank you for your response.
>
> Second, regarding the double negative with asher. It seems to me  
> that what may
> be happening is the same use as the OU MH in Greek. It is  
> intensifying the
> negative to the point of saying, "no way able" or "never able to."
>
> Third, since I am taking the double negative in such an intensive  
> meaning, then
> the OLAM would be equivalent to "infinite." This sense, although  
> "eternity"
> would be the same, would allow for the idea that man will never be  
> able to grasp
> the totality of "eternity" or "creation" from its beginning to its  
> end. There is
> a lot that man will learn or may know, but man will never find the  
> beginning or
> reach the ending of who, what, etc., of God. David, as the "Sweet  
> Psalmist of
> Israel" (forgot who originated the phrase), had it right when he  
> said, "The
> heavens declare the glory of God; and firmament sheweth his  
> handiwork....The
> earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they  
> that dwell
> therein....or the Psalm 139:1-18.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine AT twcny.rr.com>
> To: "b-hebrew Hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 5:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ecclesiastes 3:11
>
>
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > I like your analysis.
> >
> > As you noted a key word is, mib.:liy.
> >
> > It's an idiom that I think the BDB does better defining than the  
> > HALOT.
> >
> > See BDB p. 115, highly edited here:
> >
> > "2. adv. of negation ...With preps. c. MI (a) from want of; for  
> > lack of;
> > on account of there being no..."
> >
> > Ironically, the BDB does not list Ecc 3:11 under sense 2c(a), but  
> > under
> > 2c(b) with pleonatic lo', as you have mentioned.  In this latter
> > interpretation mibliy means "so that no...", also, as you have  
> > mentioned.
> >
> > Like you, I think the mibliy belongs in section 2c(a) rather than  
> > 2c(b),
> > and may be thought to mean "because without..." as it often does.   
> > See
> > Isa 5:13 mibliy da`at "because [they are] without knowledge."
> >
> > We may say the notion or deep structure of Ecc 3:11 is mibliy tet
> > 'elohiym ha`olam bilbam, where tet... surfaces as 'a$er.
> >
> > Thank you for sharing your analysis.
> >
> > Shalom,
> > Bryan
> >
> > Martin Shields wrote:
> > > Hello Bryant,
> > >
> > >
> > > > My question is, "What is your take on the phrase in the second half
> > > > of the
> > > > verse, "et-olam natan bilbam milbam asher lo-yimtza hadom et- 
> > > > hammaaseh
> > > > asher-asah...?
> > >
> > > There are a couple of issues in this verse (aren't there always),  
> > > the
> > > meaning of ‏העלם and the meaning of ‏מבלי אשר לא.
> > > Taking the second first, we have a double negative which is
> > > universally understood as either indicating a negative purpose ("so
> > > that not") or else a simple negative ("yet [he] cannot"). The  
> > > problem
> > > is that the parallels frequently cited to justify these translations
> > > do not include אשר between the negatives so that the second  
> > > negative
> > > is effectively in a separate clause. If you look for examples where
> > > this does happen, the double negatives in those instances never lose
> > > their individual negativity (if you follow my meaning).
> > >
> > > Hence I render the expression "without which [he] cannot find..."  
> > > I'll
> > > admit that I'm on my own here, but I think that it both makes  
> > > sense in
> > > context (see below) and also makes sense of the Hebrew.
> > >
> > > As a result of the usual understanding of this clause, some propose
> > > reading העלם as "darkness" so that the "darkness" God has  
> > > placed in
> > > our hearts functions to inhibit any ability to find our what God has
> > > done from the beginning to the end. With my reading I think taking
> > > העלם as a temporal term (so "eternity" in most translations)  
> > > makes
> > > sense: God has placed "eternity" (some sort of awareness which  
> > > extends
> > > beyond the present moment) in our "hearts" without which we could  
> > > not
> > > find what God has done from start to finish.
> > >
> > > How does this make sense in context? The fact that Qohelet  
> > > proceeds to
> > > make assertions about what God has done and will do (cf. especially
> > > Qoh 3:14-15) immediately demonstrates that Qohelet has some  
> > > awareness
> > > of what God has done and will do (at least he thinks he does!).  
> > > It is
> > > obvious that Qohelet isn't claiming omniscience nor comprehensive
> > > knowledge of what God has and will do, but he has some awareness and
> > > that seems to be sufficient to justify his observation.
> > >
> > > I hope that helps!
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Martin Shields,
> > > Sydney, Australia.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > b-hebrew mailing list
> > > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> >
> > --
> > B.M. Rocine
> > Living Word Church
> > 6101 Court St. Rd.
> > Syracuse, NY 13206
> > W:  (315) 437-6744
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > b-hebrew mailing list
> > b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>
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