Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Peter Kirk <peter AT qaya.org>]

On 23/11/2005 17:49, Karl Randolph wrote:

> ...
>
> > But it is certainly a commonplace of lexical semantics that words can
> > have different meanings in different contexts. Why should this not be
> > possible where those contexts are past and future reference? Here we are
> > not talking just about different tenses, but about different contextual
> > uses of `olam, as me`olam meaning "since X" in the past and le`olam or
> > `ad `olam meaning "until Y" in the future. It is immediately clear that
> > X and Y cannot refer to the same moment in time, and so the meanings
> > must be subtly different.
> >
> >    
> Peter:
>
> (WLM does not refer to point time ("moment in time"), 
> but to expanse in time. Hence it has the same meaning 
> whether future or past. The point time is irrelevant to its 
> meaning.
>  

OK, expanses in time. But they are distinct expanses in time, because 
one is remote past and the other is remote future.

>  
>
> > ...
> >
> >    
> >
> > > ...
> > >      
> > Thank you for this. This confirms more or less what I was saying, that
> > the time referred to by `olam is extended beyond our understanding, if
> > not necessarily endless. But Boman clearly rejects the idea which people
> > like Karl and Solomon have expressed, and which seems to be the sense of
> > NWT, that this time is simply of unknown duration i.e. it could be only
> > five minutes.
> >
> >    
> I reject what you claim I say here, and as far as I can tell, 
> Solomon also rejects it. I have repeatedly said I reject it, 
> so there is no justification for this assertion by you. I also 
> said I reject the wording from NWT not only as bad 
> English but also as an inaccurate rendition of the Hebrew 
> concept.
>
> For you to continue in this vein after I have repeatedly said 
> that I reject it is a bad faith argument on your part.
>  

I am sorry if I misunderstood you on this. But please remind me of what 
you are asserting and how it differs from my tentative position. Or are 
you disagreeing with me for the sake of it?

As for Solomon, his preferred interpretation is "hidden time, i.e. 
obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or 
indefinite". I suppose his "long" rules out 5 minutes, but how long is a 
piece of string? To me, `olam is not just of uncertain or indefinite 
length, but must be so extremely long that its other extremity is hidden 
in the mists of time. Perhaps Solomon agrees, but his definition does 
not make this clear.

> "Eternity" and "forever", with the exception of idiomatic 
> uses, contradict the concept of (WLM as described by 
> Thorleif Boman and to which you seem to agree above.
>  

No. "boundless time ... time extending so far that it is lost to our 
sight and comprehension in darkness and invisibility" is not that 
different from eternity. When Boman writes "´olam is not an endlessly 
long time but simply a boundless time", the point is not that it cannot 
be endless, but "it is always the concern of exegesis to ask in each 
case how far the author´s gaze pursued time".

> When in your posting of Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:22:33 
> where you made the long quote from Anthony Tomasino 
> in VanGemeren's NIDOTTE, I said to myself, "this 
> discussion is finally coming to an end, as Peter is finally 
> admitting what I have been saying all along. Anthony 
> Tomasino did a better job of saying what I said." Likewise 
> TWOT quoted by Bryant made essentially the same 
> argument that I did. And now this posting looks like you 
> are regressing back to your previous assertions.
>
>  
No, Karl, I am not backing down and I am certainly not agreeing with 
you! - unless in fact you have been agreeing with me all along. Tomasino 
is saying what I have been saying all along, that future `olam can mean 
the end of someone's life as well as the very distant future or strict 
eternity. When I have time I will post more from Tomasino to prove that 
he agrees with me.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/