Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw AT com-pair.net>]

Dear List,

1. The subject line has been changed which should have been done a while back,
but is digress.

2. The following is from TWOT,  Volume 2, #1631a, pp 672-673, by Alan A. 
Macrae.

    (WLM, forever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, 
world,
etc. (RSV similar in general, but substitutes "always for "in the world" in Ps
73:12 an "eternity" for "world" in Ecc 3:11.) Probably derived from (alam I, 
"to
hide," thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant
past. The Ugaritic cognate is (lm, "eternity."

    Though (WLM is used more than three hundred times to indicate indefinite
continuance into the very distant future, the meaning of the world is not
confined to the future. There are at least twenty instances where it clearly
refers to the past. Such usages generally point to something limitless past.
Thus in Deut. 32:7 and Job 22:15 it may refer to the time of one's elders. In
Prov 22:28; 23:10; Jer 6:16; 18:15; 28:8 it points back somewhat farther. In 
Isa
58:12; 61:4; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4, and in Aramaic of Ezr 4:15, 19 it clearly 
refers
to the time just before the exile. In I Sam 27:8; in Isa 51:9 and 63:9, 11 and
perhaps Ezk 36:2, it refers to the events of the exodus from Egypt. In Gen 6:4
it points to the time shortly before the flood. None of these past references
has in it the idea of endlessness or limitlessness, but each points to a time
long before the immediate knowledge of those living. In Isa 64:3 the KJV
translates the word "beginning of the world." In Ps 73:12 and Eccl 3:11 it is
translated "world," suggesting the beginning of a usage that developed greatly
in postbiblical times.

    Jenni holds that its basic meaning "most distant times" can refer to 
either
the remote past or to the future or to both as due to the fact that it does 
not
occur independently (as subject or an object) but only in connection with the
prepositions indicating direction (min "since," (AD "until," le "up to") or as
an adverbial accusative of direction or finally as the modifying genitive in 
the
construct relationship. In the latter instance (WLM can express by itself the
whole range of meanings denoted by all the prepositions "since, until, to the
most distant time"; i.e. it assumes the meaning "(unlimited, incalculable)
continuance, eternity." (THAT II, p.230) J. Barr (Biblical Words for Time (2
1969), p. 73) says, 'We might therefore best state the 'basic meaning' as a 
kind
of range between 'remotest time' an 'perpetuity.' ' But as shown above it is
sometimes used of a not-so-remote past. For the meaning of the word in the
attributive use we should note the designation of LORD as )EL (WLM, "The 
Eternal
God" (Gen 21:33).

    The LXX generally translates (WLM by AIWN which has essentially the same
range of meaning. That neither the Hebrew nor the Greek word in itself 
contains
the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to
events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also 
by
the fact that sometimes it is thought desirable to repeat the , not merely say
"forever," but "forever and ever."

    Both words came to be used to refer to a long age or period - an idea that
is sometimes expressed in English by "world." Postbiblical Jewish writings 
refer
to the present world of toil as HA(WLM HAZZEH and to the world to come as 
HA(WLM
HABBA).

    )AD (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as (WLM (usually 
long
continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4).

I know that this is long, but lets deal with the text and stop the snipping at
one another. It is very unseemly to be doing so.

En Xristwi,

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Kirk" <peter AT qaya.org>
To: <Awohili AT aol.com>
Cc: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>; <kgraham0938 AT comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel 6:27 (time indefinite) IIa


> On 22/11/2005 18:15, Awohili AT aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> >...
> >
> >True, as used in the Bible, "olam" does not usually refer to 15 minutes,  
> >but
> >there are places where it does not mean "forever," either. ...
> >
>
> Where? Which places? This is the question I have been asking for weeks
> it seems, and no one has given any references - apart from the past ones
> which are of little relevance, and that one about the Levitical
> priesthood having terminated, which is based on Christian theology.
>
> >...
> >I think too much of this (over)long discussion has not really been about
> >what "olam" means in the Hebrew Bible or how it is used there. It seems to 
> >be
> >about what "olam" or forever means to individual  posters.
> >
> >
>
> Indeed. Let's get back to the subject. Where is the evidence that `olam
> (with future reference) does not mean "for ever"?
>
> -- 
> Peter Kirk
> peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/
>
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