Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Kirk" <peter AT qaya.org>
> 
> On 23/11/2005 12:12, Rolf Furuli wrote:
> 
> 
> > ... That a word, even one refering to
> > time, should have a different lexical meaning in a future contexts  in
> > contrast with past contexts  is something I have never seen that anybody
> > has claimed. ...
> >
> 
> But it is certainly a commonplace of lexical semantics that words can
> have different meanings in different contexts. Why should this not be
> possible where those contexts are past and future reference? Here we are
> not talking just about different tenses, but about different contextual
> uses of `olam, as me`olam meaning "since X" in the past and le`olam or
> `ad `olam meaning "until Y" in the future. It is immediately clear that
> X and Y cannot refer to the same moment in time, and so the meanings
> must be subtly different.
> 
Peter:

(WLM does not refer to point time ("moment in time"), 
but to expanse in time. Hence it has the same meaning 
whether future or past. The point time is irrelevant to its 
meaning.

>...
> 
> > Literal translation has been criticised because one English word choosen 
> > for
> > a Hebrew word can have unwanted connotations. The same can be true with
> > idiomatic translations as well, and the English word "eternal" is such an
> > example, because the modern concept signaled by this word evidently is
> > different from the concept of (WLM.  I bring a quote from one who has
> > written a dissertation dealing with the view of time in the 
> > ancient world: R Boman (1970) "Hebrew
> > Thought Compared with Greek", pp. 151, 152:
> >
> > "The commonest word for boundless time is ´olam; according to the most
> > widespread and likeliest explanation the word is derived from ´alam 
> > meaning
> > "hide; conceal".  In the term ´olam is contained a designation of time
> > extending so far that it is lost to our sight and comprehension in 
> > darkness
> > and invisibility.  It is characteristic of the nature of this term that it
> > can be used of hoary antiquity as well as of the unbounded future, thus,
> > ´olam is not an endlessly long time but simply a boundless 
> > time... Although in
> > the Old Testament ´olam always means time which is boundless in certain
> > respect, nothing is said therein of the objective duration of astronomical
> > time; it is always the concern of exegesis to ask in each case how far the
> > author´s gaze pursued time."
> >
> >
> 
> Thank you for this. This confirms more or less what I was saying, that
> the time referred to by `olam is extended beyond our understanding, if
> not necessarily endless. But Boman clearly rejects the idea which people
> like Karl and Solomon have expressed, and which seems to be the sense of
> NWT, that this time is simply of unknown duration i.e. it could be only
> five minutes.
> 
I reject what you claim I say here, and as far as I can tell, 
Solomon also rejects it. I have repeatedly said I reject it, 
so there is no justification for this assertion by you. I also 
said I reject the wording from NWT not only as bad 
English but also as an inaccurate rendition of the Hebrew 
concept.

For you to continue in this vein after I have repeatedly said 
that I reject it is a bad faith argument on your part.

"Eternity" and "forever", with the exception of idiomatic 
uses, contradict the concept of (WLM as described by 
Thorleif Boman and to which you seem to agree above.

When in your posting of Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:22:33 
where you made the long quote from Anthony Tomasino 
in VanGemeren's NIDOTTE, I said to myself, "this 
discussion is finally coming to an end, as Peter is finally 
admitting what I have been saying all along. Anthony 
Tomasino did a better job of saying what I said." Likewise 
TWOT quoted by Bryant made essentially the same 
argument that I did. And now this posting looks like you 
are regressing back to your previous assertions.

Karl W. Randolph.

> > ...
> 
> --
> Peter Kirk
> peter AT qaya.org (personal)
> peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
> http://www.qaya.org/

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