Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>]

George:

To be honest, I’m not sure what the first half of that verse means.

ȯچηȯÈ̆χ†Á˜¯ 
YR( KBYRYM L) XQR

If YR( is a qal verb, should it not agree in aspect with the second verb in 
the verse? With the effect of the waw on switching aspect, should that not 
make the qal verb a perfective aspect, in other words, another example of YR( 
as its root?

And my questions based on etymologies calls into question the assigning the 
meaning of “mighty ones” to KBYRYM. And you have no answer for that.

One option is to make YR( a perfective verb, so that it would read, “He shook 
out uninvestigable vastnesses and made others stand in their place.” 
referring to God’s actions.

You have staked out a position that Job 34:24 is the primary proof passage 
for the existance of R(( II root with the meaning of smashing, to apply it to 
Jeremiah 15:12, but you have not demonstrated how it can be so.

As a person who is largely self-taught in Hebrew, I am not impressed by the 
mere statements of “experts”, I need to know _why_ they made those 
statements. And if I don’t see their logic, I’ll say so. I’m willing to be 
the boy who cries out, “The emporer has no clothes!”

As a lexicographer, to be certain of the meaning of a lexeme, a proof passage 
to demonstrate that meaning needs to be clear with no questions. 
Unfortunately, that is often not the case—often there are no clear proof 
passages to use to discern the meaning of lexemes, particularly for lexemes 
used five times or fewer in Tanakh. In those cases we use etymologies, 
cognate languages and earlier translation (e.g. LXX) and from those make a 
guess.

There are no clear proof passages demonstrating the existance of the R(( II 
root. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just that the case for it is very 
weak. Of the five times Lisowski claims it is used, there are grammatical 
and/or translation reasons in three of the verses to question its existance, 
and the other two verses are unclear. BDB claimed that there are a few more 
examples of its use, but even other lexicographers question those.

In closing, you made the claim that Job 34:24 proves the existance of the R(( 
II root. How?

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel AT juno.com>

> 
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 19:15:37 -0500 "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
> writes:
> > George:
> >
> > When we look at the root and other derivatives of GBR we have the
> > concept of overpowering, to (be a) master over someone else. In
> > the adjectival use it has the meaning of (overpowering) force.
> >
> > KBR has the meaning of drawn out in distance or time, in distance
> > including as a flood blankets the land. Derivatives include
> > blanket KBYR, lattice work MKBR, distance KBRT and drawn out in
> > time, as in "you are long winded" Job 8:2.
> >
> > Where does "mighty" come from? If KBYR in Job 34:24 is "mighty"
> > as an adjective, then what is the noun that is the object of YR(?
> > I see it used as a noun here, and the other uses of KBYR as a
> > noun is as a "blanket", why a different, otherwise unattested,
> > meaning here? Therefore if YR( means "smash", what is being
> > smashed? Grammatically, it can mean "flap blankets" as in shake
> > out.
> >
> > In short, grammatically "smash" is not a necessary meaning, and I
> > have trouble getting it to fit the context and verse.
> >
> > Oh yes, as "smash", how does it fit with the previous and following 
> > verses?
> >
> > Karl W. Randolph.
> ___________________
>
> Karl,
>
> Your etymologizing is really getting tiresome -- especially since you
> keep coming up with the wrong connections.  I don't think I should
> continue to trouble myself with your quibbles.  Instead, why don't you
> set forth your understanding of Job 34.24 and its surrounding verses.
> Pick as much context as you like.  I would like to see what you can do
> with your "blankets."   Perhaps they're a substitute for sand and you
> intend to hide your head in them.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________

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