Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Yigal Levin <Yigal-Levin AT utc.edu>]

I'm not Walter, but the Hebrew MT of Ps. 110:1 says: "YHWH said to my lord"
(look at JPS), "Adoni", NOT using the plural form "Adonai", which is used
for "The Lord". In the Jewish tradition, YHWH is NOT speaking to a divine
figure, but to a human, whom the psalmist calls "my lord". From the
context, this would probably be a priest.
The Christian tradition in Acts 2:34 (cf KJV of Ps. 110:1) read "my LORD",
since it assumed that the author was King David, and since the only one
whom GOD would address as "my LORD" could be Jesus.

Yigal 


At 01:46 PM 2/13/2003 -0500, John N Carras wrote:
>Walter,
>Does it make sense to consider a difference of YHWH as opposed to Lord
>found in Hebrew at Psa. 110:1 and then quoted in Acts 2:34? Would not
>Hebrew word-language indicate a difference between YHWH and the second
>instance of Lord in the Psalm?
>John Carras
>
>--------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: "Walter R. Mattfeld" <mattfeld12 AT charter.net>
>To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 08:43:47 -0500
>Subject: [b-hebrew] LORD
>Message-ID: <000a01c2cf78$1b280d30$594dbd42@yourus67pi6luv>
>
>Liz wrote:
>
>"Translators should put in YHWH, IMO
>because otherwise CHristian readers tend to think
>it's Jesus the text is talking about !"
>
>Liz,
>
>I am "confused" by the logic of your statement. Surely you are aware that
>Christians understand that it was Christ who made the world in 6 days and
>rested on the 7th day, and that it was Christ who appeared to Moses at
>Mount
>Sinai giving the Law to Israel ? So, why would it make any difference
>whether a word is translated  YHWH or not for Christian interpreters of
>the
>Old Testament ?
>
>Regards, Walter
>Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld, M.A. Ed.
>www.bibleorigins.net
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>b-hebrew mailing list
>b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>_______________________________________________
>b-hebrew mailing list
>b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
Dr. Yigal Levin
Dept. of Philosophy and Religion
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
615 McCallie Avenue
Chattanooga TN 37403-2598
U.S.A.
>From furuli AT online.no  Thu Feb 13 17:29:00 2003
Return-Path: <furuli AT online.no>
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail44.fg.online.no (mail44-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.44])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADB720012
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:28:59 -0500 (EST)
Received: from [80.213.38.189] (ti200710a080-1777.bb.online.no
        [80.213.38.241])
        by mail44.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09179
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:30:06 +0100 (MET)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05111b10ba71ca4a161e@[80.213.38.189]>
In-Reply-To: <200302131239.16823.dwashbur AT nyx.net>
References: <144.a807ec1.2b7d51bd AT aol.com>
 <200302131239.16823.dwashbur AT nyx.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:28:19 +0100
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
From: furuli AT online.no
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] LORD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
List-Id: A forum on the Hebrew Bible, its language and interpretation
        <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:29:00 -0000

Dear list-members,

I do not intend to continue this thread, just a last long-drawn sigh.

I wonder why it so often happens in discussions like this that the 
attention is turned from matter and substance to person, like: "I 
know your motives", "I know you have a hidden agenda" etc. Should we 
not all rather strive to have cordial discussions where the subject 
is in focus and not the person?


Best regards

Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo
>From mattharris73 AT yahoo.com  Thu Feb 13 18:34:39 2003
Return-Path: <mattharris73 AT yahoo.com>
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from web80102.mail.yahoo.com (web80102.mail.yahoo.com
        [66.163.169.75])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 413F020097
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:34:39 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <20030213233547.3311.qmail AT web80102.mail.yahoo.com>
Received: from [64.108.37.48] by web80102.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP;
        Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:35:47 PST
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:35:47 -0800 (PST)
From: matt harris <mattharris73 AT yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] LORD RE: Dave W
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
In-Reply-To: <200302131231.10291.dwashbur AT nyx.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
List-Id: A forum on the Hebrew Bible, its language and interpretation
        <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:34:39 -0000


 
 Dave Washburn <dwashbur AT nyx.net> wrote:
Matt,
Are you familiar with the word "facetious"?

Dave, 

touche! :p

On Thursday 13 February 2003 12:48, matt harris wrote:
> When you wrote the following I was unsure of the meaning. YHWH cannot
> substitute for YHWH can it? What is the most common substitution for YHWH
> then, is it (DNY? Surely, if there are substitions there must be one that
> is the most frequent.
>
> Dave Washburn wrote:Rolf... You keep saying that 'el is
> the most common substitution for YHWH in the scrolls... There is no "most
> common" substitution, and in reality 'el is in the minority. The most
> common reading for YHWH in the scrolls is, oddly enough, YHWH.
> Dave Washburn
> http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

-- 
Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur

_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>From mc2499 AT mclink.it  Thu Feb 13 18:50:49 2003
Return-Path: <mc2499 AT mclink.it>
Delivered-To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from mail.mclink.it (net128-007.mclink.it [195.110.128.7])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D90120011
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:50:49 -0500 (EST)
Received: from nergal (net203-173-084.mclink.it [213.203.173.84])
        by mail.mclink.it (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id h1DNptk24190
        for <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>;
        Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:51:55 +0100 (CET)
Message-ID: <06df01c2d3ba$e4bfad60$bcafcbd5@nergal>
From: "Ian Hutchesson" <mc2499 AT mclink.it>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
References: <144.a807ec1.2b7d51bd AT aol.com>
        <200302131239.16823.dwashbur AT nyx.net> 
<a05111b10ba71ca4a161e@[80.213.38.189]>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] LORD
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:51:56 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
X-BeenThere: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
List-Id: A forum on the Hebrew Bible, its language and interpretation
        <b-hebrew.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/b-hebrew>
List-Post: <mailto:b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew>,
        <mailto:b-hebrew-request AT lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:50:50 -0000

> I wonder why it so often happens in discussions like this that the 
> attention is turned from matter and substance to person, like: "I 
> know your motives", "I know you have a hidden agenda" etc. Should we 
> not all rather strive to have cordial discussions where the subject 
> is in focus and not the person?

Hi Rolf.

I wouldn't worry about the remarks. They may just be 
deflections which put you off.

The subject is of great interest and I think both you and 
Dave have part of the information. I have a little to add 
myself.

I did an informal check of all the MT adonay references 
in regard to DSS texts based on the footnotes in Abegg, 
Flint and Ulrich (The DSS Bible) and found not one 
mention of adonay in the DSS biblical texts, though I did 
find a few 'el references in their place. My check found 
that the tetragrammaton was basically intact for most of 
those I could find. (It's not the best procedure, but given 
that that was my only resource on the matter, it was 
better than nothing -- so it might not be too accurate, 
but should show the trend.)

It might be worthwhile to try and get all the information 
together before passing final judgement on the matter. 
Dave has the tendency to shoot from the hip and not 
get off his hind-quarters, but I'm sure that he also would 
be interested in the full-data rather than simply giving 
counter examples which is easy to do but statistically 
useless.

How do we go about getting the hard data rather than 
the hype? And I think it worthy to start with the biblical 
texts.


Ian