permaculture

[Michael Elvin <marimike6@yahoo.com>]

I get your point, John-- and it's an important one. Nature is red in tooth 
and claw-- but it's necessary. Otherwise we have no way of weeding out the 
weak, and making the world a comfortable place for the strong. In time we 
would be crowded out by weaklings and misfits, who should not be taking up 
space better used by the winners in life.
This is a perfect justification-- when transferred to the social plane-- for 
fascism. How much better for the world if the true winners (the most heavily 
armed and organized among us) were to crush the losers once and for all. Then 
liberty and justice could reign for all time. America-- that being the nation 
that's the current contender for global overlord-- would inherit the planet. 
And tell everyone how to live.
It's a very deep question. I think it would be equally correct, in the 
Darwinian sense, if all those "little people" were to organize and rise up 
against the big ones, neutralizing their power to destroy and command. But 
either way, we're talking global catastrophe-- the war of all against all, in 
a heavily armed world. It would be nice (although just a pipe dream) if we 
were able to reason with one another rationally, and create a society where 
all the controllers, the intolerant and the demagogues, could agree to 
coexist with all the live-and-let-live people. But I doubt there are debating 
skills that would cause that just world to come to fruition. Even in a 
democracy, the system is subject to being gamed by the most devious among us. 
Meanwhile we're living in a world somewhat like the one where all the top 
predators have died off. The wolves we have are unable to keep up with 
population increase, so no matter how many terrorists the authorities bomb, 
or how many citizens the terrorists blow up, every year there are more and 
more elk. And all these elks tend to be increasingly poorly fed, as they eat 
down the rest of the forest. The endgame is starvation for all, as the 
planet's resources get used up and the remaining wolves control a greater and 
greater share of it.
That scenario makes real solutions easier to see. More acceptance of the need 
for birth control, and greater redistribution of concentrated wealth. Those 
would be my own starting priorities. John, you have good ideas about all 
this. What do you think?
And the rest of you on the list... does this conversation belong in a 
permaculture discussion forum? It has little to do with farming-- although in 
a broad sense I think it addresses preserving the planet in a nourishing and 
productive state. But please, it's your list and I'm just a newbie. Tell me 
if I'm being out of line. 

    On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 5:32 PM, dhondt <dhondt@eircom.net> wrote:
 

 It is not as simple as the big ones eat the small ones in nature 
Michael. The big predators are necessary for the health of ecosystems. 
Take out the apex predators and often you see everything collapsing with 
some of the smaller ones that were kept in check now exploding and 
pushing out several entire species. In other words, making the whole a 
lot poorer.
Nature is not simply amoral. It strives for maximal biomass and that 
means maximal diversity. And that means lots of eating and getting eaten.

Then some new species like our own comes along with one new trick that 
nature had never seen : long distance weapons. At first spear throwers 
and bow and arrow and shortly afterwards rockets and rifles that can 
kill from more than a mile distance. And bing a new species that not yet 
fits in to nature we are causing the sixth extinction and maybe the 
destruction of the world.

Our ideas of justice or injustice only cover our own species up to a 
point and when there were very few of us that made survival sense. Now 
it is lethal.
And no, I do not know what to do about this except think about it.
John

On 03/08/16 14:12, Michael Elvin wrote:
> I don't like to put a kink in the consensus, but this seems to be a common 
> view: ""Figure out a better solution," says the mind, forgetting that there 
> are no problems in the natural world and thereby making conflict."
> That's only true if you posit that the natural world has no morality. 
> Because in reality, everyone eats everybody else. The big ones eat the 
> little ones, always have. The thing that's different about people, they 
> have ideas about things like justice & injustice... and these ideas upset 
> the natural amorality.
> Hope I'm not being too out of line.
>
>      On Tuesday, August 2, 2016 12:56 AM, Vaidila Satvika 
><vaidila@gmail.com> wrote:
>  
>
>  Well said, Scott! I'm happy for you and the direction you are guiding.
>
> There is no such thing as "understanding" consciousness because that's all
> beyond the little mind's capacity. Conceptualization and thinking on this
> level are part of the chatter that miss the deeper understanding of love
> that you're pointing to. On the level of thought we can seek and we will
> never find. The mind's reaction to this email is to judge these statements
> as pointless: "Figure out a better solution," says the mind, forgetting
> that there are no problems in the natural world and thereby making
> conflict. Our culture--Me and You--are too materialistic because we give
> too much of ourselves to thought--the most prevalent form dominating every
> human being. The natural world doesn't think--it's in harmony with itself.
> In this sense the natural world operates as a perfect invisible structure.
> (Title for your upcoming book?)
>
> And this all points to the direction that you seem to imply: inward focus
> for a more harmonious external reality. (But on a deeper level it's all
> internal to and not separate from you/me because there is only one
> connected life in constant play.)
>
> Thank you!
>
> P.S. The only sane vision of the future is now. Future only exists as a
> thought, based on the premise that tomorrow is better than today, leading
> to a perpetual craving that has led to the dysfunctional human state. And
> the mind cannot exit that problem, which is the most essential problem,
> because it itself is the barrier. And that realization is healing.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:42 PM, <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
>
>>    I personally think that a separate group for this would attract little
>> attention and soon die. To this mix is a good solution, in spite of some
>> pleople signing off ever now and then. -- Georg Parlow
>>
>> Therein lies the problem, Georg.  I have been teaching permaculture for
>> the past 30+ years and for half of that time I have been insisting on the
>> importance of invisible structures.  Mollison taught that visible
>> structures were those that showed us "what" to do and invisible structures
>> taught us "how" to do it.  Without the how too we are just an encyclopedia
>> of techniques and methods of dealing with the material world.  Once we dig
>> deep into the invisible structures we find we are able to dance around the
>> legal, financial, and social structures that are the primary impediments to
>> realizing our dreams.
>>
>> I also include permaculture ethics in the invisible structures though they
>> are mostly poorly taught in the Permaculture Design Course by many teachers
>> who are not engaged in the ethics themselves.  Care of the Earth, Care of
>> People and Return all excess yield to the Care of the Earth and People
>> sounds simple enough but if one truly applies ones thoughts to deeply
>> understanding these three ethics it leads us deeper into the realm of the
>> unknown.  I, personally, think that "Care" should be replaced with the word
>> "Love" to get the deeper significance of these ethics.
>>
>> I have been living on a yoga ashram for the past year seeking a deeper
>> understanding of the invisible and have been humbled by my ignorance of the
>> necessity to understand consciousness.  Physicists, philosophers,
>> theologians, and gurus of all stripes have sought to understand
>> consciousness and the deep appeal of materialism for hundreds of years but
>> few have actually reached that pinnacle of understanding.  After a year of
>> sitting on a zafu in meditation twice a day, 7 days a week find myself no
>> closer to understanding anything except that I know that there is an answer
>> and that meditation, prayer, contemplation, and altered states are all
>> methods that are directed at self realization.  It is a difficult process
>> to overcome the incessant chatter of the mind whose primary purpose in life
>> is to keep us tethered to the material plane.
>>
>> We no longer have the Wisdom Schools of the past to provide us with direct
>> knowledge of this process.  We have become so embedded in the materialistic
>> plane that we all are narcissists to a greater or lesser degree.  We
>> currently have a candidate for president of the USA who is the ultimate
>> narcissist, while the other candidate is a narcissist in denial.  Our
>> hunger for stuff/things has led to the destruction of our biosphere and to
>> wars to steal the stuff from other cultures and places.  We are engaged in
>> the final spasms of destroying ourselves and the planet to feed an
>> insatiable appetite for something to fill the void in our existence.  As
>> permaculture designers it is incumbent upon us to find our way back to the
>> garden.
>>
>> When I haven't been meditating I have been trying to write a book titled
>> "Dharma of Permaculture".  Dharma being the law of the cosmos as it is
>> reflected in us.  This was what the ten commandments were attempting, and
>> the beatitudes of Jesus Christ was trying to articulate.  Buddha, Lao Tsu,
>> Mohammed, Yogis, and other avatars throughout the ages have sought to
>> articulate humans role in creation and have offered rules of behavior to
>> guide us to that understanding.
>>
>> I believe that permaculture ethics are an outline of how humans should
>> survive and that the "natural principals" show us the dharma of the natural
>> world around us.  It has been through permaculture that I have slowly come
>> to realize that I am here to caretake or husband this incredible creation
>> that we no longer recognize the beauty and stunning intelligence of.
>>
>> I would love for other to join me in seeking better solutions to life than
>> the ones we currently worship.
>>>    -------Original Message-------
>>>    From: Linda Ray <lindaray@att.net>
>>>    To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>    Subject: Re: [permaculture] [OT] My Vision of the Future
>>>    Sent: Jul 31 '16 18:21
>>>
>>>    I'm with Georg on this.JMHO.
>>>
>>>    Namaste,
>>>    Linda :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>          From: Georg Parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at>
>>>    To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>    Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 11:49 AM
>>>    Subject: Re: [permaculture] [OT] My Vision of the Future
>>>
>>>    Lawrence,
>>>
>>>    >>> someone can create a Google Group PISS (permaculture invisible
>> systems
>>>    >> and
>>>    >>> structures)
>>>    >>
>>>    >> ROTFLOL
>>>    >>
>>>    > ...
>>>    > …
>>>    > You might disagree with me Georg.
>>>
>>>    please do not get me wrong - sorry when I was unclear here. I
>> personally feel that a discussion of invisible structures is a highly
>> impoertant part of why I am on this international list. Nut’n’bolts info is
>> valuable, and I think none of us can ever have too much of that, but I feel
>> that for the visible structures there are plenty of good solutions around,
>> locally and beyond. Even 50% of what I know about them right now and my
>> design training and experience would be ample enough IF I could and would
>> apply them unhindered by the current invisible structures in place. So
>> discussion on HOW we can design and implement WHICH invisible structures is
>> highly needed.
>>>    I think we can also all agree on the notion, that interlocking our
>> horns on our favoured propaganda-fed belief systems is something we could
>> do without - BUT in order to grow in our inner freedom from those
>> influences it might need some of that. It might be helpful in realizing or
>> discriminating between, what are original thougths and what are
>> propaganda-driven emotional reactions to distorted perception of reality.
>> This is tricky business, and I appreciate these discussions.
>>>    I interpreted that naming the invisible structures group PISS as a
>> Freudian sign of you being pissed about said confrontations.
>>>    I personally think that a separate group for this would attract little
>> attention and soon die. To this mix is a good solution, in spite of some
>> pleople signing off ever now and then.
>>>    Georg
>>>    (Vienna, Austria, EU)
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>>>
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> That scenario makes real solutions easier to see. More acceptance of the 
> need for birth control, and greater redistribution of concentrated wealth. 
> Those would be my own starting priorities. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but in my eyes these are not "real solutions", but 
just pipe dreams once again. Or else - how actually DO you start on these?

Georg
(Vienna, Austria, EU)