permaculture

[dhondt <dhondt@eircom.net>]

After I sent my mail out to the list yesterday I was thinking I had 
missed some interesting points. Nature is not that red in tooth and 
claw. Apex predators take just what they need even if they could kill a 
lot more than that. Animals in one species seem to have exactly the same 
morals as us humans. They avoid killing one another and even help one 
another. And there is serious cooperation between different species on 
many occasions.
The thing with apex predators is that they restrict their offspring 
numbers by slow breeding.

Except for mankind. We are a cancer of an apex predator on the planet. 
Toby from this list explained it very well in a video about the history 
of mankind. As soon as agriculture came into play we sacrificed 
ecosystems for our agriculture and through agriculture we convert low 
grade food into ever more of us.

http://www.nextworldtv.com/page/5680.html

I think this gives a few very essential ideas for the future. Of course 
it would be good if we could restrict our birth rate. I am not very 
hopeful that this will happen in a time that the pendulum is swinging 
back against the female half of our species and every sperm is held to 
be sacred again and every microscopic spec of snot (fertilized egg cell) 
is looked upon as a valuable living human.
Of course it is lethal to allow  resources to be ever more concentrated 
in the hands of ever fewer human beings. But that is unavoidable with a 
capitalist system that works like a monopoly game. Once one player has 
everything the game is over and in reality all ends a lot sooner than 
that. At the moment some 50 families own 75 % of the planet and the 
system is cracking. Even the pope preached about this the other day.

I have been feeling our society has been in free fall for a good while 
now. Falling does not hurt. Only impacting on the bottom of the abyss 
does. And the only way to survive that is to start with permaculture and 
self sufficient communities yesterday.
The crash is coming, nothing more sure than that and it takes a good 
while to get a system set up that is shock resistant. We can only hope 
that will be enough.
John

On 04/08/16 15:23, Michael Elvin wrote:
> I get your point, John-- and it's an important one. Nature is red in tooth 
> and claw-- but it's necessary. Otherwise we have no way of weeding out the 
> weak, and making the world a comfortable place for the strong. In time we 
> would be crowded out by weaklings and misfits, who should not be taking up 
> space better used by the winners in life.
> This is a perfect justification-- when transferred to the social plane-- for 
> fascism. How much better for the world if the true winners (the most heavily 
> armed and organized among us) were to crush the losers once and for all. Then 
> liberty and justice could reign for all time. America-- that being the nation 
> that's the current contender for global overlord-- would inherit the planet. 
> And tell everyone how to live.
> It's a very deep question. I think it would be equally correct, in the Darwinian sense, 
> if all those "little people" were to organize and rise up against the big 
> ones, neutralizing their power to destroy and command. But either way, we're talking 
> global catastrophe-- the war of all against all, in a heavily armed world. It would be 
> nice (although just a pipe dream) if we were able to reason with one another 
> rationally, and create a society where all the controllers, the intolerant and the 
> demagogues, could agree to coexist with all the live-and-let-live people. But I doubt 
> there are debating skills that would cause that just world to come to fruition. Even in 
> a democracy, the system is subject to being gamed by the most devious among us.
> Meanwhile we're living in a world somewhat like the one where all the top 
> predators have died off. The wolves we have are unable to keep up with 
> population increase, so no matter how many terrorists the authorities bomb, 
> or how many citizens the terrorists blow up, every year there are more and 
> more elk. And all these elks tend to be increasingly poorly fed, as they eat 
> down the rest of the forest. The endgame is starvation for all, as the 
> planet's resources get used up and the remaining wolves control a greater and 
> greater share of it.
> That scenario makes real solutions easier to see. More acceptance of the need 
> for birth control, and greater redistribution of concentrated wealth. Those 
> would be my own starting priorities. John, you have good ideas about all 
> this. What do you think?
> And the rest of you on the list... does this conversation belong in a 
> permaculture discussion forum? It has little to do with farming-- although in 
> a broad sense I think it addresses preserving the planet in a nourishing and 
> productive state. But please, it's your list and I'm just a newbie. Tell me 
> if I'm being out of line.
>
>      On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 5:32 PM, dhondt <dhondt@eircom.net> wrote:
>   
>
>   It is not as simple as the big ones eat the small ones in nature
> Michael. The big predators are necessary for the health of ecosystems.
> Take out the apex predators and often you see everything collapsing with
> some of the smaller ones that were kept in check now exploding and
> pushing out several entire species. In other words, making the whole a
> lot poorer.
> Nature is not simply amoral. It strives for maximal biomass and that
> means maximal diversity. And that means lots of eating and getting eaten.
>
> Then some new species like our own comes along with one new trick that
> nature had never seen : long distance weapons. At first spear throwers
> and bow and arrow and shortly afterwards rockets and rifles that can
> kill from more than a mile distance. And bing a new species that not yet
> fits in to nature we are causing the sixth extinction and maybe the
> destruction of the world.
>
> Our ideas of justice or injustice only cover our own species up to a
> point and when there were very few of us that made survival sense. Now
> it is lethal.
> And no, I do not know what to do about this except think about it.
> John
>
> On 03/08/16 14:12, Michael Elvin wrote:
> > I don't like to put a kink in the consensus, but this seems to be a common view: 
> > ""Figure out a better solution," says the mind, forgetting that there are no 
> > problems in the natural world and thereby making conflict."
> > That's only true if you posit that the natural world has no morality. Because in 
> > reality, everyone eats everybody else. The big ones eat the little ones, always 
> > have. The thing that's different about people, they have ideas about things like 
> > justice & injustice... and these ideas upset the natural amorality.
> > Hope I'm not being too out of line.
> >
> >        On Tuesday, August 2, 2016 12:56 AM, Vaidila Satvika 
> > <vaidila@gmail.com> wrote:
> >    
> >
> >    Well said, Scott! I'm happy for you and the direction you are guiding.
> >
> > There is no such thing as "understanding" consciousness because that's all
> > beyond the little mind's capacity. Conceptualization and thinking on this
> > level are part of the chatter that miss the deeper understanding of love
> > that you're pointing to. On the level of thought we can seek and we will
> > never find. The mind's reaction to this email is to judge these statements
> > as pointless: "Figure out a better solution," says the mind, forgetting
> > that there are no problems in the natural world and thereby making
> > conflict. Our culture--Me and You--are too materialistic because we give
> > too much of ourselves to thought--the most prevalent form dominating every
> > human being. The natural world doesn't think--it's in harmony with itself.
> > In this sense the natural world operates as a perfect invisible structure.
> > (Title for your upcoming book?)
> >
> > And this all points to the direction that you seem to imply: inward focus
> > for a more harmonious external reality. (But on a deeper level it's all
> > internal to and not separate from you/me because there is only one
> > connected life in constant play.)
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> > P.S. The only sane vision of the future is now. Future only exists as a
> > thought, based on the premise that tomorrow is better than today, leading
> > to a perpetual craving that has led to the dysfunctional human state. And
> > the mind cannot exit that problem, which is the most essential problem,
> > because it itself is the barrier. And that realization is healing.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:42 PM, <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
> >
> > >      I personally think that a separate group for this would attract little
> > > attention and soon die. To this mix is a good solution, in spite of some
> > > pleople signing off ever now and then. -- Georg Parlow
> > >
> > > Therein lies the problem, Georg.  I have been teaching permaculture for
> > > the past 30+ years and for half of that time I have been insisting on the
> > > importance of invisible structures.  Mollison taught that visible
> > > structures were those that showed us "what" to do and invisible structures
> > > taught us "how" to do it.  Without the how too we are just an encyclopedia
> > > of techniques and methods of dealing with the material world.  Once we dig
> > > deep into the invisible structures we find we are able to dance around the
> > > legal, financial, and social structures that are the primary impediments to
> > > realizing our dreams.
> > >
> > > I also include permaculture ethics in the invisible structures though they
> > > are mostly poorly taught in the Permaculture Design Course by many teachers
> > > who are not engaged in the ethics themselves.  Care of the Earth, Care of
> > > People and Return all excess yield to the Care of the Earth and People
> > > sounds simple enough but if one truly applies ones thoughts to deeply
> > > understanding these three ethics it leads us deeper into the realm of the
> > > unknown.  I, personally, think that "Care" should be replaced with the word
> > > "Love" to get the deeper significance of these ethics.
> > >
> > > I have been living on a yoga ashram for the past year seeking a deeper
> > > understanding of the invisible and have been humbled by my ignorance of the
> > > necessity to understand consciousness.  Physicists, philosophers,
> > > theologians, and gurus of all stripes have sought to understand
> > > consciousness and the deep appeal of materialism for hundreds of years but
> > > few have actually reached that pinnacle of understanding.  After a year of
> > > sitting on a zafu in meditation twice a day, 7 days a week find myself no
> > > closer to understanding anything except that I know that there is an answer
> > > and that meditation, prayer, contemplation, and altered states are all
> > > methods that are directed at self realization.  It is a difficult process
> > > to overcome the incessant chatter of the mind whose primary purpose in life
> > > is to keep us tethered to the material plane.
> > >
> > > We no longer have the Wisdom Schools of the past to provide us with direct
> > > knowledge of this process.  We have become so embedded in the materialistic
> > > plane that we all are narcissists to a greater or lesser degree.  We
> > > currently have a candidate for president of the USA who is the ultimate
> > > narcissist, while the other candidate is a narcissist in denial.  Our
> > > hunger for stuff/things has led to the destruction of our biosphere and to
> > > wars to steal the stuff from other cultures and places.  We are engaged in
> > > the final spasms of destroying ourselves and the planet to feed an
> > > insatiable appetite for something to fill the void in our existence.  As
> > > permaculture designers it is incumbent upon us to find our way back to the
> > > garden.
> > >
> > > When I haven't been meditating I have been trying to write a book titled
> > > "Dharma of Permaculture".  Dharma being the law of the cosmos as it is
> > > reflected in us.  This was what the ten commandments were attempting, and
> > > the beatitudes of Jesus Christ was trying to articulate.  Buddha, Lao Tsu,
> > > Mohammed, Yogis, and other avatars throughout the ages have sought to
> > > articulate humans role in creation and have offered rules of behavior to
> > > guide us to that understanding.
> > >
> > > I believe that permaculture ethics are an outline of how humans should
> > > survive and that the "natural principals" show us the dharma of the natural
> > > world around us.  It has been through permaculture that I have slowly come
> > > to realize that I am here to caretake or husband this incredible creation
> > > that we no longer recognize the beauty and stunning intelligence of.
> > >
> > > I would love for other to join me in seeking better solutions to life than
> > > the ones we currently worship.
> > > >      -------Original Message-------
> > > >      From: Linda Ray <lindaray@att.net>
> > > >      To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > >      Subject: Re: [permaculture] [OT] My Vision of the Future
> > > >      Sent: Jul 31 '16 18:21
> > > >
> > > >      I'm with Georg on this.JMHO.
> > > >
> > > >      Namaste,
> > > >      Linda :-)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >            From: Georg Parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at>
> > > >      To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > >      Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 11:49 AM
> > > >      Subject: Re: [permaculture] [OT] My Vision of the Future
> > > >
> > > >      Lawrence,
> > > >
> > > >      >>> someone can create a Google Group PISS (permaculture invisible
> > > systems
> > > >      >> and
> > > >      >>> structures)
> > > >      >>
> > > >      >> ROTFLOL
> > > >      >>
> > > >      > ...
> > > >      > …
> > > >      > You might disagree with me Georg.
> > > >
> > > >      please do not get me wrong - sorry when I was unclear here. I
> > > personally feel that a discussion of invisible structures is a highly
> > > impoertant part of why I am on this international list. Nut’n’bolts info is
> > > valuable, and I think none of us can ever have too much of that, but I feel
> > > that for the visible structures there are plenty of good solutions around,
> > > locally and beyond. Even 50% of what I know about them right now and my
> > > design training and experience would be ample enough IF I could and would
> > > apply them unhindered by the current invisible structures in place. So
> > > discussion on HOW we can design and implement WHICH invisible structures is
> > > highly needed.
> > > >      I think we can also all agree on the notion, that interlocking our
> > > horns on our favoured propaganda-fed belief systems is something we could
> > > do without - BUT in order to grow in our inner freedom from those
> > > influences it might need some of that. It might be helpful in realizing or
> > > discriminating between, what are original thougths and what are
> > > propaganda-driven emotional reactions to distorted perception of reality.
> > > This is tricky business, and I appreciate these discussions.
> > > >      I interpreted that naming the invisible structures group PISS as a
> > > Freudian sign of you being pissed about said confrontations.
> > > >      I personally think that a separate group for this would attract little
> > > attention and soon die. To this mix is a good solution, in spite of some
> > > pleople signing off ever now and then.
> > > >      Georg
> > > >      (Vienna, Austria, EU)
> > > >      permaculture mailing list
> > > >      permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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