permaculture

["scrooge McDuck" <declan@planetmail.net>]

I'm getting the impression that Permaculture People are not a very united bunch. What I objected to was not frankness (which I would encourage) but 'Trumpisms' or 'Boris Johnsinisms' = needlessly hurtful remarks about those on or not on the list. If Geoff Lawton is a liar, charlatan, and fraudster, judging him in absentia while providing no evidence is a very poor attempt to do anything constructive about his antics. It turns people off your message. Only fools make superficial Judgements and you provided only superficial evidence, and a very negative message. When I made an appeal for Permaculture on this Permaculture list, in my inbox were: Horror stories from China; your Satirical Irony thread, which had degenerated into unsupported judgmental vitriol, and something else negative, which escapes me. I want to be on a Permaculture mailing list to learn about the nuts and bolts of Permaculture.

I gather from the chorus that Lawton has a big head, is universally disliked and may be guilty of sharp business practices. I also detect what perhaps is envy of his elaborate online presentation, and understandable offence at his setting up in competition with other permaculture institutes. Much (but not all) of this could be explained by his approaching the task of growing his business with different priorities and methods.
--
Declan Moriarty
Sent from my Android tablet with mail.com Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

On 17/07/2016, 23:23 Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:

as a follow on from "Satirical Irony "...Thanks for the prompt
Lawrence....we have beaten this subject up several times over recent
years...seems people still don't get it. I personally do not ever intend to
offer any abuse or insult of any person. I prefer not to beat around the
bush. But being frank, blunt and honest maybe does not fit with the Dharma
of our family?.

Wes has finally found the delete button. One option for many.

Scott has pointed it out clearly enough...but, its perhaps a subject we
need to give a lot more time and obviously creedance to. Perhaps most of
what this subject entails is sadly lacking or missing completely from many
PDCs today. Bob's work would be a great start for all students and teachers.

The reality is we can not avoid the thieves, liars, cheats, charlatans and
all other nature of critter that wants to enter any domain. Perhaps many in
our family are honest folk who assume everyone else in the family is
equally honest, warm and fuzzy. But, when a rouge virus enters what do we
do about it? We obviously have not built up the resilience needed to work
our way through it.

My original entry enticing this debate was titled "Satirical Irony -ironically
satirical ...seems so to me..or is it my sick or black humour ?"

It seems there has been angst portrayed and many comments have diverted
considerably from the subject.

The simple reality to me again as Scott points out this entire subject is
very key to the whole subject of Permaculture. If Scrooge, Toby et all want
nuts and bolts design and how to on pruning paw paw perhaps Lawrence what's
needed is another site..called ironically, "the methodology and recipes
from Permacultre". Irony in a way because it seems most courses today focus
on recipes rather than ethics and principles and the respect for the
original curricula.

I have mooted many times the idea of a Post PDC an Advanced PDC in
Invisible Structures. ...when you have your book done Scott maybe we could
collaborate on thisn

Keep it open and flowing Lawrence....Steve Hart

On 17 July 2016 at 06:16, Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bob's invisible structures outline is excellent! As a way of launching the
> discussion of many of them in PDC's I have been showing a phenomenal film
> about the Pruitt-Igoe Public Housing Projects that were built in St. Louis
> in the 1950's. That housing project has become infamous worldwide and is
> used significantly in books about the failures of urban planning and
> architectural design. This film explains the greater context for those
> failures, which is really the failure of industrialized economics and
> segregated thinking, and the effect that has had on the most vulnerable in
> society, as well as the aftershocks we are experiencing today. I highly
> recommend showing this to students, particularly if they live in the US and
> are majority white. The film and the resulting discussions change peoples
> lives.
>
> The Pruitt-Igoe Myth
> http://www.pruitt-igoe.com/
>
> Jason
>
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net> wrote:
>
> > Here's the table of contents of the Invisible Structures section of my
> > ebook on urban permaculture. If this looks interesting, you can buy the
> > whole ebook for $1.99 at http://www.ipermie.net. (You can buy a pdf
> > format at the site, or follow links to ebook superstores like Amazon
> > kindle, Apple iStore, etc to buy versions suitable for other ereader
> > platforms.)
> >
> > Bob Waldrop, Okie City
> >
> >
> > Section 1: Invisible Structures
> >
> > It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick
> > society. /Jiddu Krishnamurti/
> >
> > Justice and power must be brought together, so that whatever is just may
> > be powerful, and whatever is powerful may be just. /Blaise Pascal/
> >
> > *Section List of Chapters*
> >
> > *01011 Invisible Structure Basics* <#ref_01011>
> > Structures, systems, religions, organizations, political and economic
> > systems, all the "software" that makes human societies work. We move
> > towards creating a society where it is easier to care for people, care
> for
> > the planet, and have a care for the future.
> >
> > *01021 Invisible structures for urban and college permaculture*
> > <#ref_01021>
> > The special circumstances involving invisible structures of urban and
> > college/university situations.
> >
> > *01031 Design issues in our urban realities* <#ref_01031>
> > The importance of local governments. 18 urban design imperatives.
> Problems
> > of cities.
> >
> > *01041 Invisible Structure Toolbox* <#ref_01041>
> > 14 interesting permaculture design tools useful in urban areas.
> >
> > *01051 Zones in Invisible Structures* <#ref_01051>
> > Memes, habits/behaviors, structures, systems, communities, cultures,
> > peoples, species. Eight zones for permaculture work.
> >
> > *01061 Observations About Invisible Structures* <#ref_01061>
> > Invisible structures have consequences. Changing invisible structures has
> > consequences. Be careful! The problem of unintended consequences.
> >
> > *01071 Succession and Invisible Structures* <#ref_01071>
> > Memetic evidence of damaged cultural ecologies, first, second, and third
> > order change agents.
> >
> > *01081 Extended Families, Groups, Organizations* <#ref_01081>
> > The utility and importance of voluntary cooperation and kinship bonds.
> >
> > *01091 Open Source Resistance and the Occupy Movement* <#ref_01091>
> > Replicating lessons from the Occupy movement.
> >
> > *01101 Community Permaculture Projects* <#ref_01101>
> > Ideas for community permaculture projects in cities and on campus.
> >
> > *01111 The problem of rent-seeking* <#ref_01111>
> > What happens when invisible structures corrupt and go bad.
> >
> > *01121 Structures of Control and Liberation* <#ref_01121>
> > Memes of control and liberation. How those in control stay in power and
> > how they oppress the rest of us. The importance of self-fulfilling
> > prophecies.
> >
> > *01131 War, peace, and justice* <#ref_01131>
> > Laying the foundation for a future of peace with justice.
> >
> > *01141 The Melbourne Principles* <#ref_01141>
> > Ten principles for sustainable cities, adopted in 2002.
> >
> > *01151 The Methods of Nonviolent Action* <#ref_01151>
> > From the Albert Einstein Institution, by Dr. Gene Sharp, 198 ideas for
> > nonviolent action. Used here with permission of the author..
> >
> > *01161 Social Justice and the Oppression of the Poor* <#ref_01161>
> > More on invisible structures gone wrong. How modern societies oppress the
> > poor and profit from it.
> >
> > *01171 Invisible Structure Inventory* <#ref_01171>
> > The beginning of an inventory of your involvement with invisible
> > structures and your first thoughts on necessary evolutions in invisible
> > structures.
> >
> > *01181 Invisible Structure Design Issues* <#ref_01181>
> > Two design challenges to get you started.
> >
> > *01191 Additional resources for Invisible Structures* <#ref_01191>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/15/2016 7:32 PM, scott@permaculture.org wrote:
> >
> >> I thought you would never ask!!
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 7:52 PM, <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
> >>> > Life is not "just" about how to sharpen colters to get cleaner
> >>> planting
> >>> > rows, nor how to make maple syrup it is also about how to deal
> with
> >>> greed,
> >>> >
> >>> Reality check: I have no clue as to how to deal with greed. Do you?
> >>> Please
> >>> enlightn us. I am tired of tilting at windmills when I need to be
> >>> totally
> >>> occupied with survival.
> >>> Seriously. No pi in the sky for me. No religion and no politics
> either.
> >>> Just survival and when I have made progress then I will gladly help
> >>> others.
> >>>
> >> One way to stop greed is to develop systems that do not reward greed.
> >> One of the best models I know of is the Mondragon Co-op system in the
> >> Basque country of Spain. This is a system that does not allow anyone in
> >> the co-op make more than six times the pay of the lowest paid co-op
> >> member. Guess what? If the ceo wants to make more money he has to
> find a
> >> way to see that the lowest paid also makes more money. The worker owned
> >> co-ops are starting to appear in the US particularly in Ohio and they
> are
> >> keeping jobs in the community and operating based on the second and
> third
> >> ethics of permaculture.
> >>
> >>> > how to share resources and information and much much more.
> >>> >
> >>> EX ACT LY. By all means share resources and information and
> whatever
> >>> else
> >>> we feel incluned to share. This is what I have been promoting in this
> >>> list
> >>> from its start in 1992.
> >>> Ah, the psychology behind getting people to follow a cause. Try
> >>> luring them
> >>> with the food you have taught them to raise for themselves and their
> >>> grateful neighbors in the communities they helped build. Do it now,
> >>> before
> >>> all humanity of engulfed in the war machine and full bkown corporate
> >>> domination using the war machine to gain its objectives, just like in
> >>> the
> >>> Hollywood movies, like Blade Runner.
> >>> How about a balance between posts on dealing with greed versus
> >>> ethics and
> >>> concentrated permaculture design and site construction. With the
> latter
> >>> comes POWER to people. With the former, who knows but lots of energy
> >>> expended in the process until one wakes up to the fact that there is
> no
> >>> food on the table or clean water to drink. Do the math. Count the
> hours
> >>> spent on implementation of good permaculture design and the benefits
> >>> derived from such. There needs to be a balance and I will promote
> that
> >>> to
> >>> the end of my days and my legacy will continue that after I am gone.
> >>> Look
> >>> objectively at a balance between awareness and adoption of the
> >>> permaculture
> >>> ethics as you have defined them and pure nuts and bolts Earth-based
> >>> permaculture design living on a site where that design has been
> >>> created.
> >>> LL
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I am not sure I understand your dichotomy between ethics and greed. You
> >> solve greed by following the ethics...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> >>
> >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
>
>
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--
Kia ora Ehoa

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
*Ecology Architect*
*Designer, Teacher, Builder of Ecologically Sustainable Resilient
Environments, through Urban Design, Architecture, Landscape Architecture
and Systems Ecology.​*
Skype: tipenemanawa
Phone: +64 220 75 62 11

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The Permaculture International College
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