permaculture

[Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>]

I agree that the term "zone 00" is out in the wild and might never be called 
back in. And there are types of inconsistency that I can live with ("the 
hobgoblin of little minds") but this inconsistency seems to have occurred 
because there was a need for a conceptual bucket in which to put the 
designer's mind, and zones happened to be handy, if a non-sequitur. It's a 
catchy buzz phrase, but it requires utterly different tools, concepts, 
methods, and elements than zones 0-5. I'm fine with putting all the zones at 
once into a new context; for example, I think of myself being in my personal 
zone 0, my wife as being in my personal zone 1, close friends, colleagues, 
and family in personal zone 2, etc. Or zones of decreasing comfort with the 
activities we are doing. But there all the zones are consistent; we don't 
leap from physical to mental to economic to comfort zones. Why not add a zone 
6 that is our livelihood, and zone 7 that includes all our friends? Because 
that doesn't match the other zones, that's why. 

That's one of many problems with zone 00: it is not consistent with the other 
six zones. Zone 5 is a physical, tangible space, Zones 4, 3, 2, all physical, 
tangible spaces. Zones 1 and 0, ditto. Zone 00, whoops, now we have an 
invisible, intangible, non-physical space that requires completely different 
tools to work with. That's why it is a category error, an error that a 
freshman in philosophy or math class gets penalized for making. Aren't we 
smarter than that? If we gotta call it a zone, why didn't the person who 
thought it necessary call it zone alpha or omega or something to indicate it 
is not in the same physical plane as the other 6 physical zones?

It's like a painter saying that the 4 primary colors are red, yellow, blue, 
and indecision. You know those intelligence tests that ask you which item 
doesn't belong in the same category as the others? How about: wilderness, 
pasture, orchard, production garden, kitchen garden, and melancholy? The fact 
that they call this an intelligence test might serve notice to people who 
can't make this distinction. 

So, yes, I am appealing to our desire to appear intelligent here. 
Permaculture has enough trouble as it is with being thought unscientific, 
making unsubstantiated claims, full of jargon, and the province of dreamers 
and pot-smokers. So I'd love to give at least a little of it some clarity and 
consistency.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:00 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes a great debate and I must thank you Toby for taking it on. Perhaps it
> will further the debate and task of developing our standards. Great to see
> the different view points and recourse, relevance and positioning. As I
> have already stated it has been called and labelled and firmly assumed in
> Permaculture now as Z00. So, sadly,Scott, Bob et al it is in the zone. Be
> it sector analysis or whatever. Depends on how one whats to view
> it..esoterically, spiritually or physically, through the astral or etheric.
> My memory of its introduction was with one american woman surname Dubois
> who was at IPC3. She developed the debate during the post conference PDC
> being taught by Mollison and Lea Harrison. Two hard nuts in any debate. So
> one can imagine the response.
> 
> PDC's taught in France by French Canadian Bernard Alonso have a major focus
> on Z00. So it is evolving through a number of sectors. I initially held the
> view and concern equally of Toby Scott and Bob but realised that none of my
> efforts were going to change it. One promotion I suggested was to evolve it
> into a post PDC course for those who specifically want it taught or
> discussed and evolved. Another field Toby may be the development, long
> overdue IMO of the "Invisible Structures" component of a PDC. I have been
> putting a little energy into considering again a one week advanced post PDC
> on this vital subject. Some research is needed to seek examples of what
> actual realities we as a global family are working in  in this arena. My
> major concern here is how we can evolve the Common Law element into all we
> develop on the subject. This will also need a far greater understanding and
> acceptance to bridge the gap perhaps great divide of conditioning we have
> all been party to. Ornerinessly yours Steve Hart
> 
> 
> On 8 July 2014 05:42, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hate to rain on the parade but this isn't about people going through
>> paradigm change during a PDC or about client's inner psychi, or being hit
>> by
>> lightning, it is a simple question of correct languaging.  If one is hell
>> bent on Z00 I say bless them but use it where it logically belongs as
>> "influencing energy" in sector analysis.  To stick it, arbitrarily, into
>> zone is to misunderstand what zoning is all about which is time and space
>> not state of mind/spirit/karma/ etc, etc.
>> 
>> I have yet to hear anyone suggest the concept of Z00 should be scrapped
>> just
>> that there is a more appropriate place to describe and iterate such an
>> influence.
>> 
>> Please read the above sentence at least twice before responding with more
>> bleeding heart Z00 defenses.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Scott Pittman
>> 
>> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
>> obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Lawrence London
>> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 1:15 PM
>> To: permaculture
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] ZOO ?
>> 
>> Case in point Steve, a classic post or micro essay of great importance.
>> This is one of your very best posts and one of the best from anyone I have
>> seen since this list began in 1992.
>> I will expand on some of you points in a followup after chow, mail, enjoy
>> the breezes and try to find some wild mustard to eat tomorrow.
>> 
>> LL
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Well....like it or not it is here to stay. so lets work with it as a
>>> positive zone / area to work with rather than against. That is Zone
>>> 00...the head space. Zone zero is in fact the design of the house or the
>>> office...what exists primarily inside the walls of the building within
>> the
>>> key landscape. How we design our kitchens, dining living and utilities,
>>> this is Zone 0. All zones as we know have many different elements,
>>> functions, needs, and energies. I work a lot with the principle of edge
>>> harmonics, or maximising the edge. There is considerable edge to play
>> with
>>> from one zone to the next. I have met with Z00 often in my design world
>> not
>>> only with individual clients but corporates as well. I have found it an
>>> interesting and many times if not most times, an extremely important zone
>>> to fully consider. I recall one client calling me her "dreamweaver". In
>>> many cases we are challenging their inner space, their values, their
>>> principles, beliefs, spirituality, and certainly their conditioned
>>> patterns. This is the Z00. IMO it increases our capacity and ability as a
>>> designer. It also increases out capacity to get the design right. Without
>>> it we are cutting ourselves and our clients short.
>>> 
>>> The other reality is that we see the development of Z00 in many people
>>> entering the world of Permaculture. To many the journey is life changing.
>>> All of us I'm sure know someone who has experienced such a change. This
>> is
>>> Z00.....it took many of us some time to realise that Biodynamics is in
>> fact
>>> not fairies in the bottom of the garden.....Steve Hart
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 7 July 2014 19:20, mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Permaculture is full of dumb terms, not sure why this would be any
>>>> different.  Even the word permaculture itself has become so
>>>> misunderstood so as not to mean anything in common parlance.  The
>>>> majority of the people who use the term around these parts use it to
>>>> refer to annual gardening and maybe doing some sheet mulching.  That
>>>> use of it hasn't changed around here since I moved to these parts in
>>>> the early 90s.
>>>> 
>>>> And more to your point, her use of the term Zone Zero had almost
>>>> nothing to do with the permaculture zone system except for maybe
>>>> that's how she came to using it whan she was teaching school kids...
>>>> & as a yoga teacher and a dancer and performance artist she was far
>>>> more interested in using it to refer to the somatics of the body and
>>>> the space immediately around the body and way, moving moving moving.
>>>> 
>>>> carry on,
>>>> 
>>>> ~mIEKAL
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.facebook.com/driftlessgrove
>>>> https://www.facebook.com/beyondvineyard
>>>> http://dreamtimevillage.org
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Toby Hemenway <
>> toby@patternliteracy.com
>>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Elizabeth's essay, which is beautiful and compelling, also
>> illustrates
>>>> my point perfectly. Zone Zero in her use is not a zone and is not used
>> to
>>>> design with like any zone. It's just a word to mean "the inner state of
>>> the
>>>> designer" that has nothing to do with zones. She, nor anyone else I've
>>> ever
>>>> seen, has used it as a zone that can have elements placed in it or be
>>>> arranged with respect to frequency of use, or has any thing else in
>>> common
>>>> with zones. For the 90th time, I am not arguing that personal work is
>>>> unimportant. I'm arguing that Zone 0 is a dumb term for it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Steve, I'm surprised (okay, not really, given your general
>> orneriness)
>>>> at your crack about who appointed me god. You repeatedly criticize that
>>>> permaculture is being weakened and watered down, and zone 0 is a
>> perfect
>>>> example--I would have thought you glad to see someone else is concerned
>>>> about standards and would support it instead of throwing snark (and who
>>>> appointed you god to do so?). We're all gods in permaculture--that is,
>>> this
>>>> is a system that is regulated from inside, and it's up to each of us to
>>> try
>>>> to keep the standards high.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Toby
>>>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 6:05 AM, mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> My first wife, who made her living as a yoga teacher and a teacher
>> of
>>>> improvisation in the arts, used the idea of Zone Zero constantly in her
>>>> classes and teaching.  Here's an essay she wrote about Zone Zero that
>> was
>>>> widely circulated in the mid 90s.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://dreamtimevillage.org/articles/taking_off_zone_zero.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I should qualify this post by saying she was an anarchist and was
>>> never
>>>> interested in Permaculture with a capital.  Sadly for all of us, she
>> died
>>>> suddenly of pancreatic cancer in 2004.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ~mIEKAL
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 1:08 AM, Steve Hart wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ZONE 00...I too have a degree of disquiet about Z00....as Mollison
>>>>>>> said...it was never part of the curriculum...but hey try and tell
>>> that
>>>> to
>>>>>>> the thousands out there who are seriously committed to this sector.
>>> So
>>>>>>> perhaps the problem is the solution...work with it not against it.
>>>> After
>>>>>>> all there are a lot of people, more every day it seems, that need
>>> this
>>>>>>> designing or often redesigning. A bit like reinventing ? Often too
>>>> great a
>>>>>>> Design Challenge.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Like Biodynamics...Mollison said ..ahh thatsFairies at the bottom
>> of
>>>> the
>>>>>>> garden shit...but when one actually takes the time to scratch the
>>>> surface
>>>>>>> and explore the deeper corridors there we see tremendous
>> opportunity
>>>> and
>>>>>>> value not wise to ignore.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Besides who invited you Toby to be the god in " cleaning up
>>>> ambiguities and
>>>>>>> logical inconsistencies that weaken permaculture terminology" ?
>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>> better time spent on cleaning up all the standards or lack of them
>> as
>>>> per
>>>>>>> Scott Pittman's recent podcast. God bless you...Steve Hart
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 6 July 2014 22:57, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I've posted some thoughts on why I think zone 00 as the state of
>> the
>>>>>>>> designer's mind is a bad term.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It's at:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>> http://www.patternliteracy.com/816-zone-00-right-intentions-wrong-term
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Zone 00: Right Intentions, Wrong Term
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "One of my pet projects is to clean up the ambiguities and logical
>>>>>>>> inconsistencies that weaken permaculture terminology. Today I take
>>>> aim at
>>>>>>>> the term Zone 00, used to mean either the designer or user of a
>>>>>>>> permaculture design, or their inner state. It's a concept spawned
>> by
>>>> good
>>>>>>>> intentions, but calling it a zone is logically inconsistent,
>>>> redundant, and
>>>>>>>> worst of all, has no design use. The designer's mind is a crucial
>>>>>>>> influence, but it's not a zone. If it's an influence on a design,
>>> that
>>>>>>>> makes it a sector, right? (If you just slapped your forehead and
>>> said
>>>>>>>> "Doh!" then you need read no further.) So let's stop using the
>> term
>>>> zone
>>>>>>>> 00."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Enjoy!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Toby
>>>>>>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>>>> integrated
>>>>>>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>>>>>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Kia ora
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [image: Picture]
>>>>>>> *Steve Hart*
>>>>>>> Ecology Architect
>>>>>>> skype: stevenlawrencehart
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>> integrated
>>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>> integrated
>>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>> integrated
>>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
>> integrated
>>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Kia ora
>>> 
>>> [image: Picture]
>>> *Steve Hart*
>>> Ecology Architect
>>> skype: stevenlawrencehart
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
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>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Lawrence F. London
>> lfljvenaura@gmail.com
>> http://www.avantgeared.com
>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>> Skype: lawrence.f.london
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>> http://www.ipermie.net
>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers
>> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements
>> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible
>> human habitat
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
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>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>> http://www.ipermie.net
>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>> nature-compatible human habitat
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kia ora
> 
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> Ecology Architect
> skype: stevenlawrencehart
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat