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  • From: ChildrensPeaceGuild <childrenspeaceguild@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] ZOO ?
  • Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 13:42:16 -0700

Of Toby Hemenway
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 10:33 AM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] ZOO ?
>
> I agree that the term "zone 00" is out in the wild and might never be
> called
> back in. And there are types of inconsistency that I can live with ("the
> hobgoblin of little minds") but this inconsistency seems to have occurred
> because there was a need for a conceptual bucket in which to put the
> designer's mind, and zones happened to be handy, if a non-sequitur. It's a
> catchy buzz phrase, but it requires utterly different tools, concepts,
> methods, and elements than zones 0-5. I'm fine with putting all the zones
> at
> once into a new context; for example, I think of myself being in my
> personal
> zone 0, my wife as being in my personal zone 1, close friends, colleagues,
> and family in personal zone 2, etc. Or zones of decreasing comfort with the
> activities we are doing. But there all the zones are consistent; we don't
> leap from physical to mental to economic to comfort zones. Why not add a
> zone 6 that is our livelihood, and zone 7 that includes all our friends?
> Because that doesn't match
>  the other zones, that's why.
>
> That's one of many problems with zone 00: it is not consistent with the
> other six zones. Zone 5 is a physical, tangible space, Zones 4, 3, 2, all
> physical, tangible spaces. Zones 1 and 0, ditto. Zone 00, whoops, now we
> have an invisible, intangible, non-physical space that requires completely
> different tools to work with. That's why it is a category error, an error
> that a freshman in philosophy or math class gets penalized for making.
> Aren't we smarter than that? If we gotta call it a zone, why didn't the
> person who thought it necessary call it zone alpha or omega or something to
> indicate it is not in the same physical plane as the other 6 physical
> zones?
>
> It's like a painter saying that the 4 primary colors are red, yellow, blue,
> and indecision. You know those intelligence tests that ask you which item
> doesn't belong in the same category as the others? How about: wilderness,
> pasture, orchard, production garden, kitchen garden, and melancholy? The
> fact that they call this an intelligence test might serve notice to people
> who can't make this distinction.
>
> So, yes, I am appealing to our desire to appear intelligent here.
> Permaculture has enough trouble as it is with being thought unscientific,
> making unsubstantiated claims, full of jargon, and the province of dreamers
> and pot-smokers. So I'd love to give at least a little of it some clarity
> and consistency.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:00 

Thank you Toby for concisely and definitively articulating the problem. I
invite everyone to re-read his last post especially the two passages below:

"That's one of many problems with zone 00: it is not consistent with the 
other six zones. Zone 5 is a physical, tangible space, Zones 4, 3, 2, all 
physical, tangible spaces. Zones 1 and 0, ditto. Zone 00, whoops, now we have
an invisible, intangible, non-physical space that requires completely 
different tools to work with."


"It's like a painter saying that the 4 primary colors are red, yellow, blue, 
and indecision. You know those intelligence tests that ask you which item 
doesn't belong in the same category as the others? How about: wilderness, 
pasture, orchard, production garden, kitchen garden, and melancholy?"

I hope this finally puts this argument to bed so we can move on to more
tangibly productive issues. 

-Roman Shapla
Children's Permaculture Guild




On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 5:44 PM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
wrote:



On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
wrote:

> I have sent several comments to this pointless discussion and none of them
> have been posted, perhaps because I get two identical postings, one from
> Permaculture Blog and the other from ibiblio, it seems postings to
> Permaculture Blog disappear into the ether.
>
>
They were all posted and all received by list subscribers. The Blog is a
mirror of this list
read only no posting there only here in email to the ibilio PC forum.


> I would like to propose Z000 which would be the "godhead" zone and which
> would, of course, encompass all of the zones as well as the sectors and
> ethics.  In fact Z000 would include the whole of permaculture so perhaps
> one
> could more accurately call this design system Zonaculture.  I think that
> about sums in up and seems to be in keeping with the intellectual rigor of
> the previous postings!
>

I agree with you and Toby that Zone 00 can not be a legitimate Permaculture
zone.
You can not ecord it in a design blueprint on the drafting boar. It is in
one's thoughts, imagination,
reflection, dreams and contemplation, all ongoing processes. There needs to
be a good name included in the Permaculture knowledgebase
to describe what people are presently thinking of as Zone 00, especially so
since so many are engaged in this activity. Give them credit for the good
work and great thinking they contribute to the movement.

You have Permaculture Zones, Permaculture Ethics; how about Permaculture
Lens.

LL

>
> Scott Pittman
>
> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
> obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Toby Hemenway
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 10:33 AM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] ZOO ?
>
> I agree that the term "zone 00" is out in the wild and might never be
> called
> back in. And there are types of inconsistency that I can live with ("the
> hobgoblin of little minds") but this inconsistency seems to have occurred
> because there was a need for a conceptual bucket in which to put the
> designer's mind, and zones happened to be handy, if a non-sequitur. It's a
> catchy buzz phrase, but it requires utterly different tools, concepts,
> methods, and elements than zones 0-5. I'm fine with putting all the zones
> at
> once into a new context; for example, I think of myself being in my
> personal
> zone 0, my wife as being in my personal zone 1, close friends, colleagues,
> and family in personal zone 2, etc. Or zones of decreasing comfort with the
> activities we are doing. But there all the zones are consistent; we don't
> leap from physical to mental to economic to comfort zones. Why not add a
> zone 6 that is our livelihood, and zone 7 that includes all our friends?
> Because that doesn't match
>  the other zones, that's why.
>
> That's one of many problems with zone 00: it is not consistent with the
> other six zones. Zone 5 is a physical, tangible space, Zones 4, 3, 2, all
> physical, tangible spaces. Zones 1 and 0, ditto. Zone 00, whoops, now we
> have an invisible, intangible, non-physical space that requires completely
> different tools to work with. That's why it is a category error, an error
> that a freshman in philosophy or math class gets penalized for making.
> Aren't we smarter than that? If we gotta call it a zone, why didn't the
> person who thought it necessary call it zone alpha or omega or something to
> indicate it is not in the same physical plane as the other 6 physical
> zones?
>
> It's like a painter saying that the 4 primary colors are red, yellow, blue,
> and indecision. You know those intelligence tests that ask you which item
> doesn't belong in the same category as the others? How about: wilderness,
> pasture, orchard, production garden, kitchen garden, and melancholy? The
> fact that they call this an intelligence test might serve notice to people
> who can't make this distinction.
>
> So, yes, I am appealing to our desire to appear intelligent here.
> Permaculture has enough trouble as it is with being thought unscientific,
> making unsubstantiated claims, full of jargon, and the province of dreamers
> and pot-smokers. So I'd love to give at least a little of it some clarity
> and consistency.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
> On Jul 8, 2014, at 7:00 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yes a great debate and I must thank you Toby for taking it on. Perhaps it
> > will further the debate and task of developing our standards. Great to
> see
> > the different view points and recourse, relevance and positioning. As I
> > have already stated it has been called and labelled and firmly assumed in
> > Permaculture now as Z00. So, sadly,Scott, Bob et al it is in the zone. Be
> > it sector analysis or whatever. Depends on how one whats to view
> > it..esoterically, spiritually or physically, through the astral or
> etheric.
> > My memory of its introduction was with one american woman surname Dubois
> > who was at IPC3. She developed the debate during the post conference PDC
> > being taught by Mollison and Lea Harrison. Two hard nuts in any debate.
> So
> > one can imagine the response.
> >
> > PDC's taught in France by French Canadian Bernard Alonso have a major
> focus
> > on Z00. So it is evolving through a number of sectors. I initially held
> the
> > view and concern equally of Toby Scott and Bob but realised that none of
> my
> > efforts were going to change it. One promotion I suggested was to evolve
> it
> > into a post PDC course for those who specifically want it taught or
> > discussed and evolved. Another field Toby may be the development, long
> > overdue IMO of the "Invisible Structures" component of a PDC. I have been
> > putting a little energy into considering again a one week advanced post
> PDC
> > on this vital subject. Some research is needed to seek examples of what
> > actual realities we as a global family are working in  in this arena. My
> > major concern here is how we can evolve the Common Law element into all
> we
> > develop on the subject. This will also need a far greater understanding
> and
> > acceptance to bridge the gap perhaps great divide of conditioning we have
> > all been party to. Ornerinessly yours Steve Hart
> >
> >
> > On 8 July 2014 05:42, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hate to rain on the parade but this isn't about people going through
> >> paradigm change during a PDC or about client's inner psychi, or being
> hit
> >> by
> >> lightning, it is a simple question of correct languaging.  If one is
> hell
> >> bent on Z00 I say bless them but use it where it logically belongs as
> >> "influencing energy" in sector analysis.  To stick it, arbitrarily, into
> >> zone is to misunderstand what zoning is all about which is time and
> space
> >> not state of mind/spirit/karma/ etc, etc.
> >>
> >> I have yet to hear anyone suggest the concept of Z00 should be scrapped
> >> just
> >> that there is a more appropriate place to describe and iterate such an
> >> influence.
> >>
> >> Please read the above sentence at least twice before responding with
> more
> >> bleeding heart Z00 defenses.
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >> Scott Pittman
> >>
> >> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
> >> obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Lawrence London
> >> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 1:15 PM
> >> To: permaculture
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] ZOO ?
> >>
> >> Case in point Steve, a classic post or micro essay of great importance.
> >> This is one of your very best posts and one of the best from anyone I
> have
> >> seen since this list began in 1992.
> >> I will expand on some of you points in a followup after chow, mail,
> enjoy
> >> the breezes and try to find some wild mustard to eat tomorrow.
> >>
> >> LL
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Steve Hart <
> stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well....like it or not it is here to stay. so lets work with it as a
> >>> positive zone / area to work with rather than against. That is Zone
> >>> 00...the head space. Zone zero is in fact the design of the house or
> the
> >>> office...what exists primarily inside the walls of the building within
> >> the
> >>> key landscape. How we design our kitchens, dining living and utilities,
> >>> this is Zone 0. All zones as we know have many different elements,
> >>> functions, needs, and energies. I work a lot with the principle of edge
> >>> harmonics, or maximising the edge. There is considerable edge to play
> >> with
> >>> from one zone to the next. I have met with Z00 often in my design world
> >> not
> >>> only with individual clients but corporates as well. I have found it an
> >>> interesting and many times if not most times, an extremely important
> zone
> >>> to fully consider. I recall one client calling me her "dreamweaver". In
> >>> many cases we are challenging their inner space, their values, their
> >>> principles, beliefs, spirituality, and certainly their conditioned
> >>> patterns. This is the Z00. IMO it increases our capacity and ability as
> a
> >>> designer. It also increases out capacity to get the design right.
> Without
> >>> it we are cutting ourselves and our clients short.
> >>>
> >>> The other reality is that we see the development of Z00 in many people
> >>> entering the world of Permaculture. To many the journey is life
> changing.
> >>> All of us I'm sure know someone who has experienced such a change. This
> >> is
> >>> Z00.....it took many of us some time to realise that Biodynamics is in
> >> fact
> >>> not fairies in the bottom of the garden.....Steve Hart
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 7 July 2014 19:20, mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Permaculture is full of dumb terms, not sure why this would be any
> >>>> different.  Even the word permaculture itself has become so
> >>>> misunderstood so as not to mean anything in common parlance.  The
> >>>> majority of the people who use the term around these parts use it to
> >>>> refer to annual gardening and maybe doing some sheet mulching.  That
> >>>> use of it hasn't changed around here since I moved to these parts in
> >>>> the early 90s.
> >>>>
> >>>> And more to your point, her use of the term Zone Zero had almost
> >>>> nothing to do with the permaculture zone system except for maybe
> >>>> that's how she came to using it whan she was teaching school kids...
> >>>> & as a yoga teacher and a dancer and performance artist she was far
> >>>> more interested in using it to refer to the somatics of the body and
> >>>> the space immediately around the body and way, moving moving moving.
> >>>>
> >>>> carry on,
> >>>>
> >>>> ~mIEKAL
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.facebook.com/driftlessgrove
> >>>> https://www.facebook.com/beyondvineyard
> >>>> http://dreamtimevillage.org
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Toby Hemenway <
> >> toby@patternliteracy.com
> >>>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> Elizabeth's essay, which is beautiful and compelling, also
> >> illustrates
> >>>> my point perfectly. Zone Zero in her use is not a zone and is not used
> >> to
> >>>> design with like any zone. It's just a word to mean "the inner state
> of
> >>> the
> >>>> designer" that has nothing to do with zones. She, nor anyone else I've
> >>> ever
> >>>> seen, has used it as a zone that can have elements placed in it or be
> >>>> arranged with respect to frequency of use, or has any thing else in
> >>> common
> >>>> with zones. For the 90th time, I am not arguing that personal work is
> >>>> unimportant. I'm arguing that Zone 0 is a dumb term for it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steve, I'm surprised (okay, not really, given your general
> >> orneriness)
> >>>> at your crack about who appointed me god. You repeatedly criticize
> that
> >>>> permaculture is being weakened and watered down, and zone 0 is a
> >> perfect
> >>>> example--I would have thought you glad to see someone else is
> concerned
> >>>> about standards and would support it instead of throwing snark (and
> who
> >>>> appointed you god to do so?). We're all gods in permaculture--that is,
> >>> this
> >>>> is a system that is regulated from inside, and it's up to each of us
> to
> >>> try
> >>>> to keep the standards high.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Toby
> >>>>> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 6:05 AM, mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> My first wife, who made her living as a yoga teacher and a teacher
> >> of
> >>>> improvisation in the arts, used the idea of Zone Zero constantly in
> her
> >>>> classes and teaching.  Here's an essay she wrote about Zone Zero that
> >> was
> >>>> widely circulated in the mid 90s.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://dreamtimevillage.org/articles/taking_off_zone_zero.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I should qualify this post by saying she was an anarchist and was
> >>> never
> >>>> interested in Permaculture with a capital.  Sadly for all of us, she
> >> died
> >>>> suddenly of pancreatic cancer in 2004.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ~mIEKAL
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2014, at 1:08 AM, Steve Hart wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ZONE 00...I too have a degree of disquiet about Z00....as Mollison
> >>>>>>> said...it was never part of the curriculum...but hey try and tell
> >>> that
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>> the thousands out there who are seriously committed to this sector.
> >>> So
> >>>>>>> perhaps the problem is the solution...work with it not against it.
> >>>> After
> >>>>>>> all there are a lot of people, more every day it seems, that need
> >>> this
> >>>>>>> designing or often redesigning. A bit like reinventing ? Often too
> >>>> great a
> >>>>>>> Design Challenge.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Like Biodynamics...Mollison said ..ahh thatsFairies at the bottom
> >> of
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> garden shit...but when one actually takes the time to scratch the
> >>>> surface
> >>>>>>> and explore the deeper corridors there we see tremendous
> >> opportunity
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>> value not wise to ignore.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Besides who invited you Toby to be the god in " cleaning up
> >>>> ambiguities and
> >>>>>>> logical inconsistencies that weaken permaculture terminology" ?
> >>> Perhaps
> >>>>>>> better time spent on cleaning up all the standards or lack of them
> >> as
> >>>> per
> >>>>>>> Scott Pittman's recent podcast. God bless you...Steve Hart
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 6 July 2014 22:57, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I've posted some thoughts on why I think zone 00 as the state of
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> designer's mind is a bad term.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's at:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> http://www.patternliteracy.com/816-zone-00-right-intentions-wrong-term
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Zone 00: Right Intentions, Wrong Term
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "One of my pet projects is to clean up the ambiguities and logical
> >>>>>>>> inconsistencies that weaken permaculture terminology. Today I take
> >>>> aim at
> >>>>>>>> the term Zone 00, used to mean either the designer or user of a
> >>>>>>>> permaculture design, or their inner state. It's a concept spawned
> >> by
> >>>> good
> >>>>>>>> intentions, but calling it a zone is logically inconsistent,
> >>>> redundant, and
> >>>>>>>> worst of all, has no design use. The designer's mind is a crucial
> >>>>>>>> influence, but it's not a zone. If it's an influence on a design,
> >>> that
> >>>>>>>> makes it a sector, right? (If you just slapped your forehead and
> >>> said
> >>>>>>>> "Doh!" then you need read no further.) So let's stop using the
> >> term
> >>>> zone
> >>>>>>>> 00."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Enjoy!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Toby
> >>>>>>>> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >>>> list
> >>>>>>>> maintenance:
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>>> message archives:
> >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>>>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
> >>>>>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >>>>>>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >>>> integrated
> >>>>>>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> >>>>>>>> nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Kia ora
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> [image: Picture]
> >>>>>>> *Steve Hart*
> >>>>>>> Ecology Architect
> >>>>>>> skype: stevenlawrencehart
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >>>> list maintenance:
> >>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>>> message archives:
> >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
> >>>>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated
> >>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> >>>> nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >>> list
> >>>> maintenance:
> >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>>> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> >>>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
> >>>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated
> >>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> >>>> nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> >> list
> >>>> maintenance:
> >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>>> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> >>>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
> >>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated
> >>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> >>>> nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> permaculture mailing list
> >>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> list
> >>>> maintenance:
> >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> >>>> Google message archive search:
> >>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>>> http://www.ipermie.net
> >>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >> integrated
> >>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> >>>> nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Kia ora
> >>>
> >>> [image: Picture]
> >>> *Steve Hart*
> >>> Ecology Architect
> >>> skype: stevenlawrencehart
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> permaculture mailing list
> >>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> >>> maintenance:
> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >>> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> >>> Google message archive search:
> >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>> http://www.ipermie.net
> >>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated
> >>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> >>> nature-compatible human habitat
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Lawrence F. London
> >> lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> >> http://www.avantgeared.com
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Skype: lawrence.f.london
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> >> maintenance:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> >> Google message archive search:
> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net
> >> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
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> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers
> >> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements
> >> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible
> >> human habitat
> >>
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> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
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> integrated
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> >> nature-compatible human habitat
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> > [image: Picture]
> > *Steve Hart*
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--
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>From dhondt@eircom.net Mon Jul 14 16:48:02 2014
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Second Silent Spring? Bird Declines Linked to
Popular Pesticides -[( Neonicotinoids )]-
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Unbelievable BS that industrial farming is attempting to feed the poor
hungry in the third world. Hundreds of thousands of small holding Africans
see their land, houses and crops bulldozed at the moment to make room for
big gmo production. Millions of acres where all forms of life are
exterminated to make room for gm soy and the likes. People had enough to eat
there most of the time and now they have nothing after being driven off the
land. And there are no birds left either.
It is a complete fairy tale that poisoning birds is helping people. As long
as there is an environment (including birds) there is always something to
eat. Been there, done that. Poison the land and you starve there.
John

> Steve, John and Darren will be interested in this.
> [You will love this classic propaganda from a criminal lying industry
> sycophant-slave-prostitute in a comment after the NG article: "
> Philip Germann <https://members.nationalgeographic.com/342143019554/> 4
> days ago "We have to remember there is the world to feed as well. If we
> stop using the neonics totally, how many additional children in third
> world
> countries would starve due to higher crop prices? There are many direct,
> provable links with this as well. Would a 1-3% increased starvation rate
> be worth saving the birds we are losing now? To me, a bird population
> decline of 3-4% is alarming, but no reason to have a knee jerk reaction.
> It actually sounds manageable if it does not accelerate. There will be
> blowback with anything we do. It sounds like we just need to be more
> careful in the use of these pesticides to make sure the problem does
> not accelerate." And there's more: "I don't have any answers for that
> question. It is a fundamental problem any way you look at it. I
> agree-lower population would be better, but is there any way to control
> the
> world population outside of the unconceivable eugenics programs? Do we
> let
> children starve to death because the population is too high? Who chooses.
> If it was your children starving, you would not feel so sorry for the bird
> loss... According to some theorists, the dinosaurs exceeded their
> carrying
> capacity and pushed themselves into extinction..."]
>
> <>
>
> Second Silent Spring? Bird Declines Linked to Popular Pesticides
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/07/140709-birds-insects-pesticides-insecticides-neonicotinoids-silent-spring/
>
> Second Silent Spring? Bird Declines Linked to Popular Pesticides
> Neonicotinoids are aimed at insects, but they're affecting other animals
> too, study says.
>
> Pesticides don't just kill pests. New research out of the Netherlands
> provides compelling evidence linking a widely used class of insecticides
> to
> population declines across 14 species of birds.
>
> Those insecticides, called neonicotinoids, have been in the news lately
> due
> to the way they hurt bees and other pollinators. (Related: "The Plight of
> the Honeybee."
> <http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130510-honeybee-bee-science-european-union-pesticides-colony-collapse-epa-science/>
> )
>
> This new paper, published online Wednesday in *Nature*
> <http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature13531.html#ref-link-43>,
> gets at another angle of the story—the way these chemicals can indirectly
> affect other creatures in the ecosystem.
>
> Scientists from Radboud University <http://www.ru.nl/english/> in Nijmegen
> and the Dutch Centre for Field Ornithology and Birdlife Netherlands
> (SOVON)
> <https://www.sovon.nl/en> compared long-term data sets for both farmland
> bird populations and chemical concentrations in surface water. They found
> that in areas where water contained high concentrations of imidacloprid—a
> common neonicotinoid pesticide—bird populations tended to decline by an
> average of 3.5 percent annually.
>
> "I think we are the first to show that this insecticide may have
> wide-scale, significant effects on our environment," said Hans de Kroon
> <http://www.ru.nl/plantecology/people/de_kroon/>, an expert on population
> dynamics at Radboud University and one of the authors of the paper.
>
> *Second Silent Spring?*
>
> Pesticides and birds: If this story sounds familiar, it's probably
> because Rachel
> Carson <http://www.rachelcarson.org/> wrote about it back in 1962.
> Carson's
> seminal *Silent Spring* was the first popular attempt to warn the world
> that pesticides were contributing to the "sudden silencing of the song of
> birds."
>
> "I think there is a parallel, of course," said Ruud Foppen
> <https://www.sovon.nl/nl/content/ruud-foppen>, an ornithologist at SOVON
> and co-author of the *Nature* paper.
>
> Foppen says that while Carson battled against a totally different kind of
> chemicals—organophosphates like DDT—the effects he's seeing in the field
> are very much the same. Plainly stated, neonicotinoids are harming
> biodiversity.
>
> "In this way, we can compare it to what happened decades ago," he said.
> "And if you look at it from that side, we didn't learn our lessons."
>
> *How Neonicotinoids Work*
>
> In the past 20 years, neonicotinoids (pronounced nee-oh-NIK-uh-tin-oyds)
> have become the fastest growing class of pesticides. They're extremely
> popular among farmers because they're effective at killing pests and easy
> to apply.
>
> Instead of loading gallons and gallons of insecticide into a crop duster
> and spraying it over hundreds of acres, farmers can buy seeds that come
> preloaded with neonicotinoid coatings. Scientists refer to neonicotinoids
> as "systemic" pesticides because they affect the whole plant rather than a
> single part. As the pretreated seed grows, it incorporates the insecticide
> into every bud and branch, effectively turning the plant itself into a
> pest-killing machine.
>
> This lock, stock, and barrel approach to crop protection means that no
> matter where a locust or rootworm likes to nibble—the root, the stem, the
> flower—the invader winds up with a bellyful of neurotoxins.
>
> "The plants become poison not only for the insects that farmers are
> targeting, but also for beneficial insects like bees," said Jennifer Sass,
> a senior scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council
> <http://www.nrdc.org> (NRDC) who's been building a case against the
> widespread use of neonicotinoids. The pesticide's top-to-bottom coverage
> means the plants' flowers, pollen, and nectar are all poisonous too.
>
> Worse still, Sass says, neonicotinoids can persist in the soil for years.
> This gives other growing things a chance to come into contact with and
> absorb the chemicals.
>
> "So they actually end up in plants that grow on the sides of fields and
> that were never meant to be targeted," she said.
>
> *Bye Bye Birdie*
>
> The new *Nature* paper shows strong evidence that neonicotinoids are
> dangerous even if not ingested.
>
> The study looked at population statistics for over a dozen species of
> birds
> common to farmlands in the Netherlands. Most of these species are
> dependent
> on insects for all or part of their diet, though some also munch on seeds
> and grains. This means that there are two ways neonicotinoids could be
> harming the Netherlands' birds.
>
> The first is ingestion. Studies have shown that while neonicotinoids are
> commonly considered to be safer for mammals and birds than for insects,
> they
> can still be lethal
> <http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11356-014-3180-5>in high
> enough doses. And the best way to get a concentrated dose of
> neonicotinoids
> is to eat seeds coated with them. A 1992 study
> <http://www.pesticide.org/get-the-facts/pesticide-factsheets/factsheets/imidacloprid>
> by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency found that sparrows have
> difficulty flying after consuming a tiny amount of imidacloprid, and
> become
> immobile at higher doses.
>
> The second way neonicotinoids can affect birds is by eliminating their
> food
> sources. Since these pesticides kill target and nontarget species alike,
> there are fewer flies, grasshoppers, stinkbugs, and caterpillars for the
> birds to feast on.
>
> *Causation vs. Correlation*
>
> While the new paper shows a *correlation* between high concentrations of
> neonicotinoids and declining bird populations, it doesn't claim the
> pesticides are a direct *cause* of the decrease.
>
> To make sure the correlation wasn't some sort of coincidence, the team
> analyzed a number of alternative explanations.
>
> Caspar A. Hallmann <http://www.ru.nl/plantecology/people/hallmann/> is an
> ornithologist and population ecologist at SOVON and Radboud University. As
> the lead author of the *Nature* paper, he explained that there are
> numerous
> causes for population declines in birds, from changes in the kinds of
> crops
> planted in any given year and the amount of fertilizer used to the
> urbanization of former farmland. But when the team looked at the data,
> none
> of these explanations held up.
>
> Hallmann said that, as with any correlative study, caution is a watchword.
> "But still," he says, "we think we have a line of evidence that is
> building
> up."
>
> *Pesticide Maker Disagrees*
>
> Bayer CropScience <http://www.cropscience.bayer.com>, the primary
> manufacturer of imidacloprid, defends the use of neonicotinoids. In a
> statement responding to Hallmann and his colleagues, the company writes
> <http://www.bayercropscience.us/news/press-releases/2014/0709-bee-statement---response-nature-magazine>:
> "Neonicotinoids have gone through an extensive risk assessment which has
> shown that they are safe to the environment when used responsibly
> according
> to the label instructions."
>
> The statement concludes by saying that the *Nature* paper fails to
> establish a causal link, and therefore "provides no substantiated evidence
> of the alleged indirect effects of imidacloprid on insectivorous birds."
>
> "Indeed, we showed a negative correlation, which is already very
> alarming,"
> the Dutch scientists said in response to Bayer CropScience's critique.
> "Showing causal links at the ecosystem scale would require landscape-scale
> experiments," which would be "difficult and probably very unethical."
>
> *A Third View*
>
> The Dutch scientists say neonicotinoids are negatively affecting bird
> populations. Bayer CropScience says neonicotinoids are safe when used
> correctly. Whom do we trust?
>
> Maybe an independent group that just completed a review of over 800
> scientific studies on the effects of neonicotinoids on wildlife. The Task
> Force on Systemic Pesticides <http://tfsp.hifrontier.com/>, composed of 29
> multidisciplinary scientists, recently released its landmark report
> titled *Worldwide
> Integrated Assessment of the Impact of Systemic Pesticides on Biodiversity
> and Ecosystems* <http://www.tfsp.info/worldwide-integrated-assessment/>.
>
> Overall, the scientists concluded that even when neonicotinoids were used
> according to the guidelines on their labels and applied as intended, the
> chemicals' levels in the environment still frequently exceeded the lowest
> levels known to be dangerous for a wide range of species—and were "thus
> likely to have a wide range of negative biological and ecological
> impacts."
>
> *Not Just Bees Anymore*
>
> David Gibbons, a member of the task force and head of the RSPB Centre For
> Conservation Science <http://www.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/science/>, the
> largest
> nature-conservation charity in Europe, explained that many European
> countries have already restricted three types of neonicotinoids
> <http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/about/intheworks/ccd-european-ban.html>—including
> imidacloprid—because of the mounting evidence that they harm bees.
>
> (As of yet, similar protections do not exist in the U.S. Though not for
> lack of trying—the NRDC filed a legal petition just this week asking the
> EPA to withdraw its approval of neonicotinoid pesticides
> <http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/jsass/nrdc_recently_filed_a_legal.html>.)
>
> "Over the last decade, there have been a number of mass die-offs of bees
> in
> several European countries," said Gibbons.
>
> The process of planting corn can actually dislodge the neonicotinoid
> coating, which tractors then kick up into the air with the dust from
> fields.
>
> "These clouds of dust contain very high concentrations of neonicotinoids,"
> says Gibbons, "and are instantly lethal to bees."
>
> But part of the goal of the *Worldwide Integrated Assessment* report is to
> show that bees aren't the only animals affected. The task force presents
> evidence that earthworms, aquatic invertebrates, lizards, fish, and many
> other animals are suffering ill effects as a result (either direct or
> indirect) of systemic pesticides.
>
> Gibbons says it's hard to say whether we've entered a second "silent
> spring."
>
> "However," he adds, "[neonicotinoid] use is now so widespread—nearly 40
> percent of the global insecticide market—that there are valid reasons to
> be
> worried."
>
> <>
>
> Comments from Redditors:
>
> Silent spring is right. Ten years ago the wetland behind my home was
> loaded
> with insect and bird life. Now there is silence. After a rain the ground
> would be be covered by hundreds of worms of all sizes. I haven't seen a
> worm this year. About seven years ago honey bees began to die. They were
> the canary in the coal mine we ignored. Now many animals are dieing. Two
> weeks ago I drove by a farmer spraying insecticides. Long before I saw him
> I smelled the poison. He was spraying about 30 acres but the poison mist
> covered several hundred acres.
>
> We used to drive long distance and had to frequently stop to clear the
> bugs
> of the windshield and hose the bugs off the radiator. Not anymore. When
> did
> we collectively agree to exterminate life on the planet? And where is the
> reaction and shock to this? Have we completely forgotten about our place
> in
> the world?
>
> Because the multinational biotech corporations have enough money to buy
> local and national politicians, change laws, subvert regulatory processes
> and hire an army of PR shills to turn science into a "debate" (even right
> here on Reddit) just enough to delay any action.Meanwhile, biotech is
> developing robot pollinators because they're just too greedy to stop the
> beepocalypse their Neonic pesticides are causing.
>
> It's funny you use the word "shill", I've been saying the same thing here
> on reddit about these people posing and their purpose is to distract us
> from the truth and moving towards real change. What hubris these uber-rich
> have. And what a bunch if dumbed down sheeple we've become. I just can't
> sit and watch. I have to do something about it.
> Comments from readers of the NG article:
>
> Big corporate power has negatively affected every crucial institution
> whether it is public education or scientific research, helping to make
> this
> environmentally destructive trend feasible on a large scale (because the
> profit motive won't get "challenged" as Carson had said) without notable
> repercussions for the big polluters and destroyers. In fact, many people
> cheer them on, or view them as "saviors." It's the power of propaganda at
> work. A fitting example is the so-called "war on cancer" led by the highly
> lucrative cancer industry that also flourished with the re-structuring of
> the American Cancer Society into a marketing tool for this industry,
> whereas this charity continues to obfuscate the known causes of cancer,
> such as toxicants (read the afterword of this:
> http://www.supplements-and-health.com/mammogram.html ). With big corporate
> power come big abusive practices and big propaganda.
> According to these extensive studies, Bayer's claim for
> imidacloprid/neonicotinoids as 'safe' for birds (and mammals?) appears to
> be a lie. The article states various vectors beyond the eating of affected
> insects that would compromise those poor and often non-citizen/unprotected
> human farm workers who actually tend the fields along with all of us who
> eat this treated produce.Imidacloprid is also difficult to avoid for both
> home gardeners and pet guardians. Plants and seed for the general public
> are automatically treated, but still unlabelled with this poison if not
> organic or rarely, marked "un-treated", (so not applying
> pesticides prevents nothing.) Bees, ladybugs, butterflies, earthworms,
> spiders, hummingbirds or other delightful/dependable wildlife species are
> decimated,And veterinarians recommend it as a monthly flea killing drop on
> our dogs, cats, (ferrets & rats?) Who knows how close pet contact,
> guardening or even regular small-dose eating of treated (most non-organic)
> produce affects us directly as a neurotoxin or indirectly through our most
> critical gut biomes?
>
> We have also noticed that more birds are living around our
> home/farm/forest
> because we, as beekeepers, do not use chemicals or kill living
> things--i.e., the purple martins are more plentiful because we don't kill
> the insects like our neighbors do, so we enjoy their "natural abilities."
> Plus we have many human (me: hormone breast cancer with NO risk
> factors--same for other neighbors plus pancreatic, non-smoker lung, brain,
> liver, and skin cancers) and canine cancer cases in our area, which is
> right in the middle of grain farm country and chemicals are widely
> used.When will the madness stop? When we're all dead?
> The world is changing and not in a good way. People need to speak up and
> protest the use of these type of chemicals. I for one do not wish or
> choose
> to eat poisonous food crops but the birds and the bees do not know any
> better. Grow local, eat local and just maybe BIG AG will slowly fade back
> into blackness from where them came.
>
> As I drive through the corn fields of Illinois and Indiana, I used to
> squash millions of bugs on my windshield which would become quickly coated
> with goo. No longer, I can drive for miles now and not squash a bug. They
> are not there any more. So the birds cant eat them. I don't know where
> they
> went or why. I just know my windshield stays clean in corn and
> soybean country now and it didn't used to.
>
> Since I learned that neonicotinoid pesticides are being used on annual
> garden plants I buy each spring at box stores such as Lowe's, Home
> Depot & Walmart,
> I will not be buying them in future, unless they change this practice. So
> much for attempting to grow bee friendly plants in my garden. Fortunately,
> most of my plants are now perennials and organic. To date, this season I
> have seen only a handful of butterflies and 2 bees in my garden. Only 1
> monarch. I use a paper lantern "hive" to deter wasps from settling nearby.
> I hope people are no longer buying the bee and wasp traps, which kill
> them.
> We can't afford to lose any more of these important insects. I only buy
> organic corn for my family- better for them, plus the birds & the bees!
> _______________________________________________
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> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat


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