permaculture

[Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>]

I was looking at this image
http://www.inmagine.com/imb091/imb0910770-photo

looks like your place in Gardnerville is much more gentle terrain.

do you have contour maps?

if not, you can use http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/ to get USGS topo maps for
your site and catchment area calcs.

for a more detailed contour map for your place at interval of your choice
(i.e. 1', 2', 5', 1m, etc), see the sketchup how to create contour maps
here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bav_t8qw2Mc&list=FLurvi9wn9MostmWFrrirmWg

then I use illustrator to overlay a google earth image with a scale bar.
I'm guessing photoshop would work.  or autoCAD if you are familiar with the
programs.

I got the sketchup video link from the Regrarians facebook group.  check it
out if you use facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/140395289480580/

I usually get climate data from
Western Regional climate center
http://wrcc.dri.edu/

and USGS geological maps
http://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ngmdb/ngmdb_home.html

and NRCS web soil survey
http://websoilsurvey.sc.egov.usda.gov/App/HomePage.htm

from the google earth image looks like a great opportunity for water
harvesting erosion control earthworks similar to those in Craig Sponholtz
field guide http://drylandsolutions.com/Erosion_Control_Field_Guide.pdf

I would love to see some compare/contrast trials of contour and keyline
layouts for some of these erosion control techniques, as well as variations
in planting layouts (i.e. above and below structures, alley cropping,
savannah, etc.)

I'm nearby in Reno.  There are severals sites developing around N NV right
now.  let me know if you want to visit any to see various styles of design
and mgmt.

best of luck on your projects,
Neil




On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:19 PM, Jay Woods <woodsjaya@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure what photo you are looking at. Try looking at Zillow:
> 1542 Holbrook Bluffs Ct, NV
> http://www.zillow.com/homes/1542-Holbrook-bluff-ct,-nv_rb/
>
> On Friday, January 10, 2014 10:10:39 AM Neil Bertrando wrote:
> > assuming your place is like the photo...
> >
> > you might be able to do something similar to SALT using contour post
> > hedgerows to build up sediment and mulch, or rock mulch on contour again
> to
> > build up terraces over time.  dependent on sediment and water supply
> (rate
> > and qty).
> >
> > I think planting pickets or moving rocks by hand on steep slopes fits the
> > category of hard labor
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 7:04 AM, Jay Woods <woodsjaya@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > That is because there is a hidden variable here. In order to maintain
> my
> > > health I must put in an hour of hard labor per day. I choose to do it
> > > building
> > > up something "extremely detail intensive, technically difficult
> > > terraforming"
> > > that requires a lot of hard labor. The same amount of love could be
> > > lavished
> > > on house building but on a limited budget and for scope, the
> terraforming
> > > uses
> > > up more time for the same level of pretty.
> > >
> > > I am not advocating terraforming 40 acres - that amount of ground will
> be
> > > left
> > > in pinyon pines and nut gathering in mild competition to the pinyon
> jays.
> > > I am
> > > expecting to terrace an acre around the house for a food forest.
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, January 07, 2014 07:34:15 PM Neil Bertrando wrote:
> > > > seems like diminishing returns to me.  why not leave the land for
> bird
> > > > nesting and other wildlife use that can be harvested by less
> intensive
> > > > means than extremely detail intensive, technically difficult
> > >
> > > terraforming?
> > >
> > > > least change for greatest effect type of application in my opinion.
> > > >
> > > > this is the type of scenario I'd run through a land components
> analysis
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > triple check for type I errors before doing something.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Pete Gasper, Gasper Family Farm <
> > > >
> > > > farmer1@gasperfarm.com> wrote:
> > > > > Look into the terracing construction methods of the Inca's. Sounds
> > >
> > > similar
> > >
> > > > > to the things Lawrence discusses for the Asian terrases and maybe
> more
> > > > > along
> > > > > the lines of the solution you need.
> > > > >
> > > > > They were creating productive terracing systems on what for all
> > >
> > > intensive
> > >
> > > > > purposes looks like near vertical rocky slopes.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 01/07/2014 10:14 AM, Jay Woods wrote:
> > > > > > I appreciate the effort you went through to get the references. I
> > >
> > > have
> > >
> > > > > read them all.
> > > > >
> > > > > > But (he wrote with a smile) they are not designed for my
> constraints:
> > > > > thin soil, steep
> > > > >
> > > > > > slopes, little water, and 30 miles to the nearest Keystone paver.
> > > > > > The
> > > > >
> > > > > following gives an
> > > > >
> > > > > > idea of the lay of the land:
> > > > > >       *  http://www.inmagine.com/imb091/imb0910770-photo
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unfortunately, the rock formations are not layer cake geology
> either
> > > > >
> > > > > here in Nevada in
> > > > >
> > > > > > the basin and range province.  The closest I have been able to
> come
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > > > > techniques is:
> > > > > >       *
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.merip.org/mer/mer254/water-conflict-cooperation-yemen
> > > > >
> > > > > > Unfortunately, the water rights have been stripped from the land
> and
> > > > >
> > > > > well drilling is not
> > > > >
> > > > > > an option. The article plainly indicates that it wasn't much of a
> > > > >
> > > > > solution anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Somehow I need to build terrace walls that are sealed against
> water
> > > > >
> > > > > leakage and that
> > > > >
> > > > > > insulate enough that cold weather won't heave the walls using
> only
> > > > >
> > > > > readily available
> > > > >
> > > > > > local materials which means rocks, dirt, and pinyon pine and
> plenty
> > >
> > > of
> > >
> > > > > hand labor. As I
> > > > >
> > > > > > am used to mining, converting some of the local limestone to
> > >
> > > quicklime
> > >
> > > > > has never
> > > > >
> > > > > > been a difficult task.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Monday, January 06, 2014 08:05:01 PM Neil Bertrando wrote:
> > > > > >> In general for construction, earthworks and other technical
> > >
> > > information
> > >
> > > > > >> require detailed calculations, specs, design parameters, etc.  I
> > >
> > > refer
> > >
> > > > > to
> > > > >
> > > > > >> FAO, NRCS, engineering, and construction references.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> you might also consider utilizing the keyline design system for
> > >
> > > layout.
> > >
> > > > > >> Here's a list of resources.  hope it helps.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Soil conservation techniques for hillside farms
> > >
> > >
> http://www.nzdl.org/gsdlmod?e=d-00000-00---off-0hdl--00-0----0-10-0---0--->
> > >
> > >
> > > > 0d
> > >
> > >
> irect-10---4-------0-1l--11-en-50---20-home---00-0-1-00-0-0-11-1-0utfZz-8-
> > >
> > > > > 00>
> > > > >
> > > > > >> &cl=CL1.16.9&d=HASHbdde2fe3749493c1a0de2d.1&gt=2
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> NRCS engineering field manual chapter 8 Terraces
> > >
> > >
> http://irrigationtoolbox.com/NEH/Part650_EngineeringFieldHandbook/EFH-CH08
> > >
> > > > > .p>
> > > > >
> > > > > >> df
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> FAO Watershed mgmt field manual ch 9
> > > > > >> http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/ad083e/ad083e10.htm
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> FAO Irrigation Water mgmt: Irrigation methods
> > > > > >> http://www.fao.org/docrep/s8684e/s8684e03.htm
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> bench terrace design made simple
> > >
> > >
> http://tucson.ars.ag.gov/isco/isco12/VolumeIV/BenchTerraceDesignMadeSimple
> > >
> > > > > .p>
> > > > >
> > > > > >> df
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> FAO Watershed mgmt field manual ch 6
> > > > > >> http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/ad083e/ad083e07.htm
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> FAO Watershed mgmt field manual ch 8
> > > > > >> http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/ad083e/AD083e09.htm
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> retaining wall manual for Keystone pavers
> > > > > >> http://www.keystonewalls.com/media/Literature/ConstManual.pdf
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Am Soc of Ag engineers terrace manual.  not able to access but
> > > > > >> would
> > > > >
> > > > > like to
> > >
> > > http://elibrary.asabe.org/abstract.asp?aid=41193&t=2&redir=&redirType=
> > >
> > > > > >> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jay
> Woods<woodsjaya@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>> I'd like to try terracing on 5 acres of hillside here in
> Nevada.
> > >
> > > It is
> > >
> > > > > dry
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> country so the water table needs to be perched in each terrace.
> Do
> > >
> > > you
> > >
> > > > > >>> have
> > > > > >>> any sources on their construction? I remember seeing terracing
> > > > > >>> used
> > > > >
> > > > > under
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> these conditions in the Mid-East.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On Monday, January 06, 2014 12:24:21 PM Lawrence London
> wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Pete Gasper, Gasper Family
> > >
> > > Farm<
> > >
> > > > > >>>> farmer1@gasperfarm.com>  wrote:
> > > > > >>>>> What kind of soil is underneath those fields? Here in America
> > >
> > > we'd
> > >
> > > > > >>>>> consider
> > > > > >>>>> that too steep to plant or do much anything with besides
> maybe
> > > > > >>>>> cattle
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> or
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>>> scrub timber. But then you can't run a combine with a 30'
> header
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> across it
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>>> and our soils of such geography tend to have stone a few
> inches
> > > > > >>>>> down.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> But
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>>> I
> > > > > >>>>> wonder if human scale agriculture could radically expend food
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> production
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>>> here via methods like that.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>   The amount of planning that goes into the design,
> construction
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > > soil
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>> preparation of those terraces is incredible. I read an
> article on
> > >
> > > a
> > >
> > > > > >>>> group
> > > > > >>>> that rebuilt some that had been damaged from erosion when
> the
> > >
> > > walls
> > >
> > > > > >>>> collapsed. I guess construction methods vary according to
> > >
> > > materials
> > >
> > > > > >>>> available on site but usually a lot of dry-laid stonework goes
> > >
> > > into
> > >
> > > > > the
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>> foundation of each terrace wall. Drainage and wall
> reinforcement
> > >
> > > is
> > >
> > > > > part
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> the process. I think some Asian rice terraces date back
> thousands
> > >
> > > of
> > >
> > > > > >>> years.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> The steep terrain was all the people had to work with, little
> or
> > >
> > > no
> > >
> > > > > flat
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>> land. Here in the US the best farmland, prime, not marginal,
> > >
> > > should
> > >
> > > > > >>>> be
> > > > > >>>> protected from development and made available for
> agricultural
> > >
> > > use
> > >
> > > > > only
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>> employing natural methods and materials and permaculture.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> There is no reason that prime farm soil on hilly terrain could
> > >
> > > not be
> > >
> > > > > >>>> terraced and farmed productively. Depending on slope
> techniques
> > >
> > > using
> > >
> > > > > >>>> Yeoman Keyline plows to backhoes, to skid loaders to track
> > > > > >>>> loaters
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > > > > >>> track
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> hoes could be used. Water would be a big issue and
> impoundments
> > >
> > > would
> > >
> > > > > be
> > > > >
> > > > > >>>> necessary. I am talking about earthworks only, without any
> > > > > >>>> masonry
> > > > > >>>> components unless they are abundant on site and can be used
> in
> > >
> > > situ
> > >
> > > > > >>>> along
> > > > > >>>> with the soil used to build the earthworks. An in depth
> > >
> > > permaculture
> > >
> > > > > >>>> systems design could be created using polyculture, livestock,
> > >
> > > fish,
> > >
> > > > > >>>> crustaceans, crop diversity, post harvest methods that recycle
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> byproducts,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> chinampas, all ideas taken from certain terraced regions in
> the
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Phillipines
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> where permaculture is practiced traditionally and is the de
> facto
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> standard
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > > maintenance:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> integrated
> > > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > > nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers
> > -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements
> > for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible
> > human habitat
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> nature-compatible human habitat
>