permaculture

[christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>]

Hi Rafter,

No worries, rafter! I am just swamped with work and needed an hour to sit 
down and really respond. I only put that out as an example to clarify that 
business and "capitalism" are what many of us engage in, unless we have jobs 
working for the state. I have no intentions of being a BBQ business man, 
other than episodically selling some of our surplus. I also install 
photovoltaic systems, bidding on contracts, buying the components, designing 
the systems, and then installing them. I make money off of that, pure market 
capitalism, not a whole lot, but I don't want to do that, exclusively, 
either. I do manage to win most of the bids I put in because my prices are 
low and my work is good. That is an example of "market capitalism", too. 
Sometimes I sell for a bit more than I buy, and sometimes I charge for my 
labour. Most of my annual income comes from the 5-10 contracts I get a year, 
and most of my work is from repeat customers, the government of Belize, and 
various indigenous NGOs for schools, village level water systems and ranger 
stations in protected areas.

As for worker coops, I have been involved in a few, helping manage a cacao 
cooperative for 7 years, and much prefer running my own program to the petty 
internal conflicts of any group of stakeholders in the same enterprise. Your 
mileage may vary, but working with Maya people in partnership is very 
difficult, even for Maya people, because of how divided communities are in 
terms of party politics, religion, family ancestral squabbles ("..his 
grandfather borrowed my great uncles axe and bough it back with the handle 
broken...") and envy, which is a very strong emotion and the very first 
emotion described in the Popul Vuh, the Caqchiquel creation story. 

To answer your initial question: I bought a piece of land, with capital. Not 
much, this was a long time ago, I was very young, but it was something. In 
fact it was all the money in the world, to me. I used sweat equity to plant 
acres of trees. I made a piggery with more capital. I bought pigs. I feed 
them food fro the trees I have grown on my land. I sell piglets. I have made 
more than I have invested. In the strict definition of capitalism, that would 
qualify as being a capitalist and getting a return on my investment. Having 
said that, small scale farming is hardly profitable, so it is unlikely I will 
ever make a lot of money off of the pigs, which is fine. I am not doing this 
for the money. As an NGO we use the pigs to demonstrate that you can raise 
pigs from tree crops. The sales of the pigs and the high quality compost we 
make are all part of that equation.

The amount of species one manages is inversely proportionate to the ability 
to produce marketable quantities of any one product. I manage over 600 
species of plants, many of which have no direct market value. I could 
simplify, produce only cacao and samwood (Cordia Alliadore) and make 
marketable quantities of both, and I am, but in addition to those two 
marketable species, I have hundreds of others. Some are leguminous, and fix 
nitrogen, some are medicinal, and displace store bought medicine, some are 
timbers, which will be sold, eventually, and a lot is food. Some are 
ornamentals, which, while they attract pollinators, I plant because they are 
pretty.

Most farmers here used to practice this type of farming, but that has been 
displaced by the emerging "Market capitalism" of agricultural commodities. Is 
a farmer with 50 acres of citrus a farmer, or are they "capitalist" 
commodities producers? Either way, when the market goes bad, or a disease 
arrives, they are in serious trouble. Monocultures are inherently unstable, 
both biologically and economically, with upsets happening in the market place 
based on production in other parts of the world. Locally: Greening disease? 
Tristeza virus? That citrus is going to have issues. And the model I have 
been working on for the last 24 years is very stable, both economically and 
ecologically, but is hardly economically rewarding, until I start to harvest 
the timber I planted in my 20s, hopefully in another 10-20 years, when I need 
hip replacement surgery, or whatever. I hope to make enough money to retire 
and live comfortably from that, while not damaging the work I have done.

I am not anti-capitalist, per se. The market economy has led to many 
breakthroughs in technology and medicine. This computer I am using is an 
example. It is a Macbook Pro. It cost more than a PC. I like the software. I 
like the hardware, and I was willing to pay more for it. The problem with 
capitalism, for me, is the inability to see the logical conclusion of growth 
economics on a finite planet. That is one of the places where I differentiate 
between capitalism and destructive capitalism. Anything based on perpetual 
growth is doomed.

Looking back on the last century, experiments in socialism and communism 
resulted in state capitalism, which was every bit as destructive as "market 
based" capitalism, being based on perpetual growth, and perhaps more so. In 
the market you can decide to buy from one company or another based on your 
preferences. Boycott company X because they X, Y and Z! I never understood 
the left/right economic arguments because, to me, both of them were built on 
extractive nonregenerative models, and both of them caused terrible 
environmental damages. Trying to interject that into the "discussion" had 
both sides looking at me like I had bugs on my eyeball or was the village 
idiot. The dominant paradigm of growth was unquestioned, and maybe that was 
intentional. If people are busy squabbling about wether the chairs on the 
Titanic are collectively owned, rented, or for sale, the Titanic is still 
going down.

This discussion is going to be too wide for me to really participate in much 
more, but I wanted to suggest that capitalism, in its present form, is widely 
varied. Some of it is really bad, large corporations who privatize profit but 
socialize loss, as in the bank bail outs, the oil cartels and their hidden 
subsidies, sweat shops, etc, and some of it can be positive, look at this 
small start up company for an example: http://www.biolitestove.com, or the 
village shop where I buy the things I need. Many of the tools we use will 
only be made in a capitalist model, whereby the energy expended on research 
and development will be recouped at a later date. 

This may be unpopular to say, but little in the world is black and white. 
Capitalism is nuanced, just like permaculture, just like life, itself. Now if 
I make enough profit from my next solar job, I might be able to buy one of 
those groovy biolite biochar stoves.

Warm wishes on a sunny day,

Christopher

_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE, 
Central America

Country code 501-630-4386

www.mmrfbz.org
www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm




On Sep 17, 2013, at 3:21 AM, rafter sass ferguson wrote:

> My whole argument is that we *do* need to talk about capitalism, and that
> we need a clear definition of capitalism in order to do that effectively.
> 
> To re-quote (from the article) Emily Kawano's response to me, when I
> questioned whether we should talk about capitalism in the Financial
> Permaculture course:
> 
>> "I]t is critical for organizers/practitioners to have a clear eyed
>> systemic analysis of capitalism so we can build towards systemic
>> transformation *instead of lovely but isolated practices.* I completely
>> agree that there’s a lot of smoke and obfuscation [about the meaning of
>> capitalism] – but that’s a problem.”
> 
> 
> She said it better than I ever could. Are we looking for systemic
> transformation, or beautiful gestures?
> 
> To rephrase my question to Chris - which I hope came across as friendly,
> because that's definitely my intention!
> 
> - In the article I posted, I introduced the "5 elements" definition of
> capitalism, in long use by the Center for Popular Economics.
> (If anyone has questions about the meaning of those 5 terms, please voice
> them! I haven't heard any yet.)
> What Chris described doesn't seem like it maps onto those elements:
> *• private ownership of means of production:* modest, but sure
> *• wage labor*: very little!
> *• production for sale, not use:* Chris is describing mostly production for
> sale, so sure. But I bet he's doing a ton of production for use alongside
> that.
> *• maximizing profit:* clearly maximizing multiple goals, not just profit!
> *• market exchange:* barely! social relationships are clearly mediating
> exchange as much or more than markets
> 
> So for me, what Chris described is a great example of entrepreneurship (and
> sounds delicious!), but is *not* an example of capitalism.
> I want to be clear that by opposing capitalism, we *don't *have to oppose
> what Chris is doing.
> 
> If Chris wants to scale up and become a BBQ tycoon - then the question of
> institutional structure comes in. Then we can say: Oy, Chris - have you
> thought about making your farm-to-table BBQ empire a worker coop?
> 
> warmly,
> rafter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> We could spend a long time discussing the definitions of capitalism, other
>> forms of "ism", solidarity, and many other economic concepts. And maybe not
>> ever find agreement (been there, done that). Rafter, may I suggest that it
>> might be helpful for you to include a glossary in your article, defining
>> key terms as you are referring to them in the article? Then we have a clear
>> point from which to begin an intelligent discussion.
>> 
>> I am personally very interested in documenting what works, meaning, what
>> has demonstrably improved people's lives and what has regenerated
>> ecosystems. From what I've observed, it is not one-size-fits-all by any
>> means. I know people who own property and the means of production who have
>> accomplished significantly wonderful things in the realms of caring for
>> earth and people and fair share, and I've also see that with cooperatives,
>> and the use of the "commons."  The common denominator in all of those
>> successful projects was at least one person who is dedicated to stewarding
>> that piece of land or project and who really assumes responsibility for it,
>> and is willing and able to spend the time observing the system and becoming
>> educated enough to be competent at regenerating it rather than degrading it
>> further. And who is willing to accept feedback and self-regulate
>> accordingly.
>> 
>> Koreen Brennan
>> 
>> www.growpermaculture.com
>> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
>> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: rafter sass ferguson <liberationecology@gmail.com>
>> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 6:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Confronting the Context: Permaculture and
>> Capitalism
>> 
>> 
>> How do you define capitalism such that what you're describing qualifies?
>> 
>> That doesn't sound like capitalism to me.
>> 
>> On Sunday, September 15, 2013, christopher nesbitt wrote:
>> 
>>> I think an example is that I own a farm. Among the over 600 species I
>>> manage, I grow pineapples. I cannot sell them in season as the market is
>>> flooded. I can process them for the off season, by making jams and
>> jellies,
>>> and then harass my friends to buy the pineapple jam from me around
>>> Christmas, (which I do, literally going door to door selling my jam to my
>>> friends, hahaha). That is "business" and is an entrepreneurial
>> enterprise.
>>> While I bought the jars from the government of Belize at a subsidized
>>> wholesale price, it is not capital intensive, and value adds my
>> production.
>>> I own the means of labour (do most of the work myself), and the canning
>>> equipment didn't cost much.
>>> 
>>> I also sell piglets and people buy them. I had to buy 4 pigs and build a
>>> piggery for them, and all of that sent me back about USD800. I have sold
>> or
>>> traded 50 piglets at either USD25 each or a trade of comparable value,
>>> which grossed me the equivalent of USD1250. I netted USD450, minus the
>> two
>>> years of feeding them excess from the farm, including the skins and
>> hearts
>>> of the pineapples I planted. I then use my pig manure to make great
>> compost
>>> and apply that to my pineapple and tree crops, getting spectacular growth
>>> rates. Since most of the pig food comes from trees, anyway, this is a
>> good
>>> way to cycle the nutrients back to the farm, while also making some
>> money.
>>> 
>>> I will be fattening up three sows for the next four months, and then
>>> BBQ'ing them at the Saturday market, and value adding the value of the
>> pork
>>> meat. Its all profit since I do not eat pork. pork, a delicacy in Maya
>>> communities, sells for USD1.75 a pound. One pound of pork can make two
>> BBQ
>>> plates, and sells for USD3.50 with some tortilla and beans. I have to
>> share
>>> some of the money with someone who makes BBQ since that is not one of my
>>> skills. He is an entrepreneur, and built the BBQ device from an old
>> propane
>>> tank, and learned the skill set of making BBQ.
>>> 
>>> In strict senses, that is both capitalism and entrepreneurial.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _____________________________
>>> Christopher Nesbitt
>>> 
>>> Maya Mountain Research Farm
>>> San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
>>> PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
>>> BELIZE,
>>> Central America
>>> 
>>> Country code 501-630-4386
>>> 
>>> www.mmrfbz.org
>>> www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:58 PM, rafter sass ferguson wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Scott,
>>>> 
>>>> I think the article I linked to would probably answer your question.
>> But
>>> in
>>>> case you don't feel like reading it, here you go:
>>>> 
>>>> I'm borrowing the definition of capitalism that has been used for the
>>> last
>>>> 30 years by the Center for Popular Economics. Capitalism is a
>>>> political-economic system characterized overwhelmingly by these 5
>>> elements:
>>>> (1) Private ownership of the means of production
>>>> (2) Wage labor (i.e. selling your labor to an owner)
>>>> (3) Production for sale (not for use)
>>>> (4) Market exchange (as the central mechanism for making allocation
>>>> decisions)
>>>> (5) Profit maximization (as the central mechanisms for making
>> production
>>>> decisions)
>>>> 
>>>> I'm using the term entrepreneurial enterprise to refer to people taking
>>>> risks with their resources to try and make a living as their own boss
>> (or
>>>> co-boss with their colleagues) - to try and turn their big ideas and
>>>> ambition into a livelihood.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope that clarifies things.
>>>> 
>>>> Warmly,
>>>> Rafter
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Before we start the conversation I would like to know what is the
>>>>> difference
>>>>> in the dichotomy you present "entrepreneurial enterprise" and
>>>>> "...capitalism"??
>>>>> 
>>>>> Scott
>>>>> 
>>>>> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
>>>>> obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of rafter
>>> sass
>>>>> ferguson
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:11 PM
>>>>> To: NE PC Listserv; permaculture; permaculture
>>>>> Subject: [permaculture] Confronting the Context: Permaculture and
>>>>> Capitalism
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here's hoping for some *new* conversations about capitalism and
>>>>> permaculture - because we've heard all the old ones enough times by
>>> now...
>>>>> 
>>>>> So let's sound the funeral dirge for that ol' smoke 'n' mirrors that
>>> says
>>>>> we have to choose between *entrepreneurial enterprise* and *opposing,
>>>>> undermining, and replacing capitalism.*
>>>>> 
>>>>> See you in the comments!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> http://liberationecology.org/2013/09/11/confronting-context-permaculture-cap
>>>>> italism/
>>>>> 
>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>> Rafter
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
>>>>> PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
>>>>> University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
>>>>> liberationecology.org
>>>>> 518 567 7407
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>>>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
>> PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
>> University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
>> liberationecology.org
>> 518 567 7407
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
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>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
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>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
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>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
> PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
> University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
> liberationecology.org
> 518 567 7407
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com