permaculture

[Neil Bertrando <neilbertrando@gmail.com>]

I believe this is a critical avenue of questions and thought to be
operationalized in our efforts to co-create agroecosystems that are
supported by society.

paraphrased 'if we don't understand history, we're doomed to repeat it'
and if we can't define it clearly we can't understand it fully

in order to make effective and lasting change 'systemic transformation', we
can be more effective in our actions (least change for greatest effect) if
we identify leverage points and if we can monitor for information that
demonstrates our trajectory towards or away from a goal (ecological or
economic).  Also, to have an alternate system defined is a clear goal to
work towards.  so I offer my great thanks to Emily and others in the
Solidarity Economics field for demonstrating and developing this lexicon
and practice.

I recently listened to an interview with David Holmgren by Scott Mann (
http://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2013/david-holmgren/) where David
states his view that we need more (and more) on the ground demonstration
sites which are rooted in place and actively regenerative.  I believe part
of this active regeneration is participating in value exchange (both market
and otherwise) in the local and global resource supply chains.  In
particular, we can focus our actions to re-route these supply chains and
offer products that support more regenerative development.  This is one of
the points I hoped to make with my recent small scale nursery article (
http://permaculturenews.org/2013/09/11/small-scale-nursery-applications-reflections-from-loping-coyote-farms-nursery-nv-usa/
)

I've heard this from many permacultureists.  we need people on the ground,
rooted in place, demonstrating what works, continuing to observe and
iterate the incremental design process, deepening our relationships, and
sharing their stories and experiences and surplus to facilitate more on the
ground development.  I agree with Koreen and am a believer of what works
for a specific site context.  I also want to understand why it works and
how it works and what we might be able to design and do to improve how well
it works for us, for society, and for the ecology.

Thanks Rafter for contributing to this development and adding to the
toolkit for meeting our goal of improving ecosystem health while meeting
human needs (while enriching lives)...

cheers,
Neil




On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 2:21 AM, rafter sass ferguson <
liberationecology@gmail.com> wrote:

> My whole argument is that we *do* need to talk about capitalism, and that
> we need a clear definition of capitalism in order to do that effectively.
>
> To re-quote (from the article) Emily Kawano's response to me, when I
> questioned whether we should talk about capitalism in the Financial
> Permaculture course:
>
> > "I]t is critical for organizers/practitioners to have a clear eyed
> > systemic analysis of capitalism so we can build towards systemic
> > transformation *instead of lovely but isolated practices.* I completely
> > agree that there’s a lot of smoke and obfuscation [about the meaning of
> > capitalism] – but that’s a problem.”
>
>
> She said it better than I ever could. Are we looking for systemic
> transformation, or beautiful gestures?
>
> To rephrase my question to Chris - which I hope came across as friendly,
> because that's definitely my intention!
>
>  - In the article I posted, I introduced the "5 elements" definition of
> capitalism, in long use by the Center for Popular Economics.
> (If anyone has questions about the meaning of those 5 terms, please voice
> them! I haven't heard any yet.)
> What Chris described doesn't seem like it maps onto those elements:
> *• private ownership of means of production:* modest, but sure
> *• wage labor*: very little!
> *• production for sale, not use:* Chris is describing mostly production for
> sale, so sure. But I bet he's doing a ton of production for use alongside
> that.
> *• maximizing profit:* clearly maximizing multiple goals, not just profit!
> *• market exchange:* barely! social relationships are clearly mediating
> exchange as much or more than markets
>
> So for me, what Chris described is a great example of entrepreneurship (and
> sounds delicious!), but is *not* an example of capitalism.
> I want to be clear that by opposing capitalism, we *don't *have to oppose
> what Chris is doing.
>
> If Chris wants to scale up and become a BBQ tycoon - then the question of
> institutional structure comes in. Then we can say: Oy, Chris - have you
> thought about making your farm-to-table BBQ empire a worker coop?
>
> warmly,
> rafter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Koreen Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > We could spend a long time discussing the definitions of capitalism,
> other
> > forms of "ism", solidarity, and many other economic concepts. And maybe
> not
> > ever find agreement (been there, done that). Rafter, may I suggest that
> it
> > might be helpful for you to include a glossary in your article, defining
> > key terms as you are referring to them in the article? Then we have a
> clear
> > point from which to begin an intelligent discussion.
> >
> >  I am personally very interested in documenting what works, meaning, what
> > has demonstrably improved people's lives and what has regenerated
> > ecosystems. From what I've observed, it is not one-size-fits-all by any
> > means. I know people who own property and the means of production who
> have
> > accomplished significantly wonderful things in the realms of caring for
> > earth and people and fair share, and I've also see that with
> cooperatives,
> > and the use of the "commons."  The common denominator in all of those
> > successful projects was at least one person who is dedicated to
> stewarding
> > that piece of land or project and who really assumes responsibility for
> it,
> > and is willing and able to spend the time observing the system and
> becoming
> > educated enough to be competent at regenerating it rather than degrading
> it
> > further. And who is willing to accept feedback and self-regulate
> > accordingly.
> >
> > Koreen Brennan
> >
> > www.growpermaculture.com
> > www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> > www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: rafter sass ferguson <liberationecology@gmail.com>
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 6:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Confronting the Context: Permaculture and
> > Capitalism
> >
> >
> > How do you define capitalism such that what you're describing qualifies?
> >
> > That doesn't sound like capitalism to me.
> >
> > On Sunday, September 15, 2013, christopher nesbitt wrote:
> >
> > > I think an example is that I own a farm. Among the over 600 species I
> > > manage, I grow pineapples. I cannot sell them in season as the market
> is
> > > flooded. I can process them for the off season, by making jams and
> > jellies,
> > > and then harass my friends to buy the pineapple jam from me around
> > > Christmas, (which I do, literally going door to door selling my jam to
> my
> > > friends, hahaha). That is "business" and is an entrepreneurial
> > enterprise.
> > > While I bought the jars from the government of Belize at a subsidized
> > > wholesale price, it is not capital intensive, and value adds my
> > production.
> > > I own the means of labour (do most of the work myself), and the canning
> > > equipment didn't cost much.
> > >
> > > I also sell piglets and people buy them. I had to buy 4 pigs and build
> a
> > > piggery for them, and all of that sent me back about USD800. I have
> sold
> > or
> > > traded 50 piglets at either USD25 each or a trade of comparable value,
> > > which grossed me the equivalent of USD1250. I netted USD450, minus the
> > two
> > > years of feeding them excess from the farm, including the skins and
> > hearts
> > > of the pineapples I planted. I then use my pig manure to make great
> > compost
> > > and apply that to my pineapple and tree crops, getting spectacular
> growth
> > > rates. Since most of the pig food comes from trees, anyway, this is a
> > good
> > > way to cycle the nutrients back to the farm, while also making some
> > money.
> > >
> > > I will be fattening up three sows for the next four months, and then
> > > BBQ'ing them at the Saturday market, and value adding the value of the
> > pork
> > > meat. Its all profit since I do not eat pork. pork, a delicacy in Maya
> > > communities, sells for USD1.75 a pound. One pound of pork can make two
> > BBQ
> > > plates, and sells for USD3.50 with some tortilla and beans. I have to
> > share
> > > some of the money with someone who makes BBQ since that is not one of
> my
> > > skills. He is an entrepreneur, and built the BBQ device from an old
> > propane
> > > tank, and learned the skill set of making BBQ.
> > >
> > > In strict senses, that is both capitalism and entrepreneurial.
> > >
> > >
> > > _____________________________
> > > Christopher Nesbitt
> > >
> > > Maya Mountain Research Farm
> > > San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> > > PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> > > BELIZE,
> > > Central America
> > >
> > > Country code 501-630-4386
> > >
> > > www.mmrfbz.org
> > > www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:58 PM, rafter sass ferguson wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Scott,
> > > >
> > > > I think the article I linked to would probably answer your question.
> > But
> > > in
> > > > case you don't feel like reading it, here you go:
> > > >
> > > > I'm borrowing the definition of capitalism that has been used for the
> > > last
> > > > 30 years by the Center for Popular Economics. Capitalism is a
> > > > political-economic system characterized overwhelmingly by these 5
> > > elements:
> > > > (1) Private ownership of the means of production
> > > > (2) Wage labor (i.e. selling your labor to an owner)
> > > > (3) Production for sale (not for use)
> > > > (4) Market exchange (as the central mechanism for making allocation
> > > > decisions)
> > > > (5) Profit maximization (as the central mechanisms for making
> > production
> > > > decisions)
> > > >
> > > > I'm using the term entrepreneurial enterprise to refer to people
> taking
> > > > risks with their resources to try and make a living as their own boss
> > (or
> > > > co-boss with their colleagues) - to try and turn their big ideas and
> > > > ambition into a livelihood.
> > > >
> > > > Hope that clarifies things.
> > > >
> > > > Warmly,
> > > > Rafter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Scott Pittman <
> scott@permaculture.org
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Before we start the conversation I would like to know what is the
> > > >> difference
> > > >> in the dichotomy you present "entrepreneurial enterprise" and
> > > >> "...capitalism"??
> > > >>
> > > >> Scott
> > > >>
> > > >> "To change something build a new model that makes the existing model
> > > >> obsolete"  Buckminster Fuller
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of rafter
> > > sass
> > > >> ferguson
> > > >> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 3:11 PM
> > > >> To: NE PC Listserv; permaculture; permaculture
> > > >> Subject: [permaculture] Confronting the Context: Permaculture and
> > > >> Capitalism
> > > >>
> > > >> Here's hoping for some *new* conversations about capitalism and
> > > >> permaculture - because we've heard all the old ones enough times by
> > > now...
> > > >>
> > > >> So let's sound the funeral dirge for that ol' smoke 'n' mirrors that
> > > says
> > > >> we have to choose between *entrepreneurial enterprise* and
> *opposing,
> > > >> undermining, and replacing capitalism.*
> > > >>
> > > >> See you in the comments!
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> http://liberationecology.org/2013/09/11/confronting-context-permaculture-cap
> > > >> italism/
> > > >>
> > > >> Warmly,
> > > >> Rafter
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
> > > >> PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
> > > >> University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
> > > >> liberationecology.org
> > > >> 518 567 7407
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> permaculture mailing list
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> > > >> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
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> > > >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
> > PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
> > University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
> > liberationecology.org
> > 518 567 7407
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
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> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
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> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Rafter Sass Ferguson, MS
> PhD Candidate | Crop Sciences Department
> University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign
> liberationecology.org
> 518 567 7407
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
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> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>