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Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics

From: Pierre Marx <pierremarx@ymail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 20:56:22 -0700 (PDT)

G'day John & others,

If I read John's reply correctly, he seems to imply that aquaponics systems
are anearobic. Not so. The bacteria that convert the ammonia to nitrites, and
other species that convert the nitrites to nitrates, all require oxygen to
thrive. Hence the use of air bubblers in most succesful system to get the
dissolved oxygen (DO) levels to the maximum. And to prevent the fish from
going belly up, of course. DO is VITAL to the operation of aquaponics. This
is further mitigated by system design, e.g. the commonly used flood and drain
system gradually floods the growing media with poop water, then the water
flushes away quickly which effectively "sucks in" O2 from the air above the
growing bed. Then the bacteria go to work to do the conversions so that the
plants can thrive. Without O2 (by definition, anearobic conditions), the
bacteria die -> poop remains poop -> fish die of ammonia poisoning. BIG PONG.

Areas that get clogged up in the grow beds, e.g. tomatoes have vigorous root
systems that sometimes lead to "dead" spots in the beds, get anaerobic. When
you stick your hands in there, it pongs. As you would expect. These dead
areas mean that the overall conversion efficiency of the grow bed (i.e.
natural filter) becomes less efficient. A regular testing regime (e.g.
weekly) for ammonia and nitrates will show you how efficiently the conversion
is happening, and will point out when there are problems in the system. That
is one reason for instance why sand is a Really Bad Growing Medium in
aquaponics, because it simply clogs up with poop and plant roots too easily.

Earth worms are often put into the growing beds, where they work further on
the sludge and enable the most to be made of the nutrients contained therein.

Lastly, there are very few places on this planet where the perfect combo of
soils & climate occur. (I happen to be in one such place, being NW Tasmania.)
So even in organic soil-based ag, one would have to import micronutrients in
the form of rock dusts, kelp meal etc. to get the soil in balance. This can
also be done in an aquaponics system. Most systems are run in the pH range of
6.0-6.2, which means that rock dust amendments will get dissolved by the
slightly acidic water, thereby making the nutrients avaliable to the entire
system (plants & fish). Quite commonly, sea weed extracts are also added for
the same purpose.

Cheers

Pierre Marx

>________________________________
>From: John D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net>
>To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 8:22 AM
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics
>
>
>My problem with aquaphonics is not just disolved chemicals aka nutrients.
>Soil is an ecosystem consisting for at least ten % out of microorganisms and
>often a lot more. To a large extend these soil organisms are aerobic. It is
>as good as impossible to maintain a large aerobic community in water.
>john
>
>> On 10/7/2012 9:52 PM, Scott Pittman wrote:
>>> I too have serious misgivings about aquaponics. It is always presented
>>> as
>>> some kind of perpetual motion machine that provides for all its needs
>>> within
>>> the system, which I doubt. I also do not believe that it could possible
>>> have the nutrients necessary for providing wholesome and nutritious
>>> foodstuff. We are talking about the primary nutrient source being fish
>>> dung
>>> in this closed system, where does the selenium, calcium and phosphorous
>>> come
>>> from? The co-evolution of plants with soil organisms and minerals has
>>> created the human nutrition story and without soil I think the actual
>>> nutrient content will be woefully inadequate.
>>
>> I would never try to grow food for myself in an aquaponics system unless
>> its nutrients came from extracts of soil-based systems (don't quite know
>> how that would work given the anaerobic aspects of aquaponics systems. I
>> did find through a Google search a site with pictures of a soil-based
>> aquaponics system but they were growing ornamental aquatic plants in
>> submerged perforated barrels with a soil mix in them. The root crowns of
>> the plants were slightly above water level.
>>
>>> I would love to see some data on nutrient content of hydroponic vs soil
>>> based vegetables.
>>
>> There is probably no comparison with the nutrient dense food crops grown
>> in enriched soil with balanced nutrients and minerals.
>>
>>> I would also point out that both the rice paddy system and chinampa
>>> systems
>>> are soil based systems with a lot of water to maintain growth they are
>>> not
>>> by any means hydroponic or aquaponic. You might also throw in the fast
>>> disappearing mangroves as an example of aquaponics but again you would be
>>> wrong.
>>
>> In Eritrea they are developing an array of sustainable farming systems
>> that use sea water, They impound water in lagoons and grow shrimp in
>> them. That nutrient-rich water is released down stream to fertilize and
>> irrigate salt-tolerant land based crops. These crops are used to human
>> as well as livestock feed and to make rope or cloth. They are also
>> propagating, planting and harvesting mangroves for firewood, livestock
>> feed and construction wood. They are not reducing the populations of
>> mangroves along the coastline where their project is located. There is a
>> PBS documentary about this well worth watching, maybe viewable online or
>> for $$$ for the dvd.
>>
>> LL
>>
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>From pierremarx@ymail.com Tue Oct 9 00:02:28 2012
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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 21:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pierre Marx <pierremarx@ymail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
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Oops, should have read Kathryn's response first before chiming in. Well said
Kathryn.

Cheers

Pierre Marx

>________________________________
>From: "KAKerby@aol.com" <KAKerby@aol.com>
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 12:45 PM
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics
>
>OK, I've been gone for a number of hours, a bunch of emails on this topic
>have come in, and I'd like to address some of these statements in turn.
>But it'll be in summary form, so hopefully no one takes offense that I'm
>just trying to answer things as quickly as possible.
>
>First, aquaponics is most definitely an aerobic setup. The claims made
>about faster growth are precisely because aquaponics is MUCH MORE aerobic
>than standard soil-based farming. The roots are exposed to much greater
>rates
>and volumes of gas exchange, so poor gas exchnage is no longer a
>bottleneck for plant growth rates. That exchange rate can be varied
>depending on
>both the system design and the cycling rate. One of the three major
>hydroponic and aquaponic methods, known as flood-and-drain, features a
>container of
>planting media and intact plants which is repeatedly flooded, then
>drained, then flooded again, at whatever cycle is appropriate for the
>plants. So
>you could have system conditions ranging from near-saturation to
>near-desert rates of moisture for the root zone, whatever the plants need.
>With that
>system, each new influx of water fills the container, thus driving out any
>atmosphere (mix of O2, CO2 and N2 and trace elements) from the root zone.
>That "flood" stage is generally the shorter of the two phases. The longer
>"drain" stage draws atmosphere back down deep into the root zone, for a
>dramatically faster gas exchange rate than would ever occur in soil-based
>growing. The other two most popular setups, Nutrient Flow Technique and
>Floating Raft Technique, generally feature part of the root mass submerged,
>and
>part of the root mass in an extremely high-humidity but non-submerged
>atmosphere. So again, there's no drowning or anaerobic conditions. If a
>hydro-
>or aquaponics system ever goes anaerobic, something is very dramatically
>wrong.
>
>Second, I concur wholeheartedly that soil is a precious commodity, and
>should be treasured as such. So the comment that someone was turned off by
>seeing a photo of an aquaponics system in the foreground, then very tidy
>inedible landscaping in the background, is a philosophical objection I would
>
>share. However, I have to point out that it wasn't a valid indicator on
>whether aquaponics can or cannot be part of a sustainable setup. Rather,
>it
>was merely an indication of that particular person's taste in landscaping.
>You could take that same setup, and put it in a poor village in some
>distant
>poverty-stricken nation, and perhaps feel better about the fact that it's
>feeding everyone in the village. Same system. And there are countless
>variations on that system to match up with needs all around the world. So
>if
>some aquaponics fan had a front yard that didn't meet up with your personal
>preferences for landscaping, that's hardly an indictment against the
>approach as a whole.
>
>Also on the topic of soils, I would point out that merely having access to
>soils does not guarantee that folks can grow what they need, as much as
>they need, and when they need it, on those soils. Or even if they could
>grow
>what they need during ideal years, conditions might be so unpredictable
>that they couldn't count on those soils to produce what they need, year
>after
>year. We live in one of the most productive agricultural areas of the
>world. We are greatly blessed that we can work with both forested and rich
>fertile floodplain soils. We have a mild climate, with a nice long growing
>season. But even here, there are things we can't grow reliably, including
>staples like corn and alfalfa. Try feeding 100 head of livestock without
>those two staples, and you'll be up at night trying to balance your feed
>ration with whatever you can scrounge instead. Been there, done that. We
>are
>very fortunate to be able to go out and buy those materials when we can't
>grow them. But other families and other farms in other places aren't
>nearly
>that lucky. They must eat from whatever they can grow. Even when the
>soils are just right in terms of fertility, tilth, moisture, temperature
>and
>solar exposure, one storm, one flood, one early frost or late frost or any
>other combo of "bad luck" events, can wreck the crop. In some fortunate
>parts of the world, that's not a big deal. We buy in what we need to
>replace
>what we lost. Other folks aren't so lucky, and they go hungry. Aquaponics
>removes a lot of that variability. That's why we want to use it here. It
>would be our backup for those crops which are iffy at best even in our
>prime agricultural area. And it will allow us to grow some critical crops
>which, despite our near-ideal setup, we still can't grow here.
>
>The question of equipment and volunteers and employees is a complication,
>which ironically makes aquaponics shine even brighter. We are in WA state,
>USA. It might surprise folks to learn that we CANNOT have farm volunteers
>here. It's against state law. We can either have interns, that must be
>enrolled in a public school and taking a class for credit in which we are a
>formal part of the curriculum, or we can have employees, paid at least
>minimum wage, and fully insured under our farm insurance coverage plan.
>And now
>proposed federal law, which didn't pass this year but very well might in
>the future, states that family members must be "immediate family", ie,
>spouse, children and parents. Cousins and aunts and uncles and
>grandparents/grandkids, etc, would not be considered family, and thus would
>be required to
>be hired, for at least minimum wage, with full insurance coverage. So as
>neat as it sounds to have some big farm in the family, working that farm
>requires some careful thought because manpower is no longer quite so easy
>to
>access.
>
>OK, so if we can't have lots of people, let's get some large-scale
>machinery in here instead. Sadly, that's not very practical either. A
>70hp
>tractor, and all the implements listed in a previous post, would cost more
>than
>our house is worth. We have a 20 hp tractor that was manufactured the same
>year my dad was born. Our haying equipment was made when draft animal
>power was still in use in the USA, and that equipment can be drawn either
>with
>our small tractor or a team. We shopped very carefully for that
>equipment, and saved a great deal of money, by buying smaller than everyone
>said
>we'd need. We didn't finance any of it. Yet it still set us back quite a
>bit
>financially, and we still have repairs to make before any of it is field
>ready. So yes, a lot of folks are having serious problems getting into
>farming, because even if they have access to land they need either manpower
>or
>machinery to work it, and both of those options are not nearly as easy to
>come by as they used to be.
>
>Which brings us to aquaponics. Because machinery and manpower are both so
>expensive here, we have to make the absolute best use of our time, at a
>scale that we can reasonably accommodate without either equipment or
>employees. One of the major questions we're facing right now with this
>bigger
>farm, is whether we want to take on all that extra work, knowing that we'd
>have
>to have employees (thankfully, we'd have access to their machinery instead
>of buying it ourselves). But I can produce the same products via
>aquaponics that I manage by myself, as I can with field crops requiring a
>lot of
>expensive equipment and/or hired help. That's because of two things.
>First,
>it is so much more productive per square foot than any soil-based system.
>Second, it allows for harvests in small batches, rather than one
>all-or-nothing harvest. I've known of growers who raise just enough feed
>for their
>animals to last one day with aquaponics. They plant one tray per day, they
>harvest one tray per day. The rest of the trays are growing and don't
>need to be messed with other than watering. The manpower is minimal, and
>they're doing the work I'd have to have machinery AND manpower to
>successfully
>harvest in the field. And that's only if the weather cooperates. If the
>weather doesn't cooperate, or the machinery breaks down, or the manpower
>quits or is busy or sick or otherwise unavailable, that harvest rots.
>Shucks,
>that's too bad. And most years, at least one of those issues comes along.
>Try telling your family that they don't get to eat because the tractor
>blew a hydraulic seal. Aquaponics has its own list of woes, but they don't
>tend to be quite so dramatic, so costly, or so all-or-nothing in scale.
>
>Finally, I know a lot of folks will puzzle about this next question, but we
>believe it is utter folly to farm with anything less than profitable
>outcomes. We subscribe to the theory that for any farm to be truly
>sustainable, it must meet the Three E's: Environmental, Ethical and
>Economical
>Sustainability. So everything we do here, is for the love of the land and
>love
>of the life, but it's also how we pay the bills. If we can't pay the
>bills,
>for instance if we borrowed money to buy all that nice big machinery, we
>won't be farming very long. And then all this nice talk about sustainable
>this-n-that goes right out the window. The next guy comes along and
>converts all this wonderful farmland into condos. Or a junkyard for old
>cars. Or
>a landfill. Or whatever. I know some folks farm because they want to.
>Some folks farm because they have to, since they can't get food otherwise.
>We farm because we feel called to do so, but we must meet those 3 E's in
>order to continue doing so for any length of time. Again, aquaponics
>removes
>a lot of the harvest uncertainty, and thus the financial uncertainty, from
>this gig called farming. That means it's not merely a nice tool in the
>toolbox. For us that means it's borderline essential. Farming without it
>is
>riskier than it needs to be.
>
>I guess after all this, I would suggest that folks can decide they're not
>interested in aquaponics, and that's fine. They can decide they don't want
>to use aquaponics, and that's also fine. They can decide wow there's more
>here than they realized, go learn about it, and maybe implement it or maybe
>not, according to their own needs and interests. All that is fine. Where
>I tend to get twitchy, is when folks hear the term "aquaponics", and they
>only know a little about it, and they start making assumptions about it,
>and then they start making opinions and decisions based on those
>assumptions.
>Or worse, start advising people based on those assumptions. I would
>strongly encourage folks to learn about this approach before forming
>opinions
>about it. Don't just go with what you've seen in the headlines, or on
>Youtube, or heard someone say that someone said that someone said that it's
>just
>a bunch of hooey. Either learn about it, and speak from a position of
>knowledge and experience. Or simply say "well, I've heard about it but
>don't
>know much about it, so I can't really say." That's all I ask.
>Kathryn Kerby
>frogchorusfarm.com
>Snohomish, WA
>
>
>
>In a message dated 10/8/2012 2:23:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>dhondt@eircom.net writes:
>
>
>My problem with aquaphonics is not just disolved chemicals aka nutrients.
>Soil is an ecosystem consisting for at least ten % out of microorganisms
>and
>often a lot more. To a large extend these soil organisms are aerobic. It
>is
>as good as impossible to maintain a large aerobic community in water.
>john
>
>> On 10/7/2012 9:52 PM, Scott Pittman wrote:
>>> I too have serious misgivings about aquaponics. It is always presented
>>> as
>>> some kind of perpetual motion machine that provides for all its needs
>>> within
>>> the system, which I doubt. I also do not believe that it could
>possible
>>> have the nutrients necessary for providing wholesome and nutritious
>>> foodstuff. We are talking about the primary nutrient source being fish
>>> dung
>>> in this closed system, where does the selenium, calcium and phosphorous
>>> come
>>> from? The co-evolution of plants with soil organisms and minerals has
>>> created the human nutrition story and without soil I think the actual
>>> nutrient content will be woefully inadequate.
>>
>> I would never try to grow food for myself in an aquaponics system unless
>> its nutrients came from extracts of soil-based systems (don't quite know
>> how that would work given the anaerobic aspects of aquaponics systems. I
>> did find through a Google search a site with pictures of a soil-based
>> aquaponics system but they were growing ornamental aquatic plants in
>> submerged perforated barrels with a soil mix in them. The root crowns of
>> the plants were slightly above water level.
>>
>>> I would love to see some data on nutrient content of hydroponic vs soil
>>> based vegetables.
>>
>> There is probably no comparison with the nutrient dense food crops grown
>> in enriched soil with balanced nutrients and minerals.
>>
>>> I would also point out that both the rice paddy system and chinampa
>>> systems
>>> are soil based systems with a lot of water to maintain growth they are
>>> not
>>> by any means hydroponic or aquaponic. You might also throw in the fast
>>> disappearing mangroves as an example of aquaponics but again you would
>be
>>> wrong.
>>
>> In Eritrea they are developing an array of sustainable farming systems
>> that use sea water, They impound water in lagoons and grow shrimp in
>> them. That nutrient-rich water is released down stream to fertilize and
>> irrigate salt-tolerant land based crops. These crops are used to human
>> as well as livestock feed and to make rope or cloth. They are also
>> propagating, planting and harvesting mangroves for firewood, livestock
>> feed and construction wood. They are not reducing the populations of
>> mangroves along the coastline where their project is located. There is a
>> PBS documentary about this well worth watching, maybe viewable online or
>> for $$$ for the dvd.
>>
>> LL
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 07:52:25 2012
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Thank you for sharing Kathryn and Pierre. I live in Florida where much of the
"soil" is in fact sugar sand. Even in relatively old forests, the sand
content of the soil is significant. One of the problems we deal with here is
finding plants that 1. are palatable and 2. have nutrition that can grow in
sugar sand.

Most of us in the state spend a lot of time and effort building soil
artificially, above the sand, and figuring out ways to prevent it from
sinking into the sand and disappearing in our baking hot summers. We use
hugulkulture, biochar, lots of organic matter (like wood chips, which come
from the "waste stream", as they would otherwise go into the landfill) of
(often) old growth trees cut down in our city. We take seaweed off the beach
for minerals, and the impact is minimal, but again, at some point, if urban
ag gets big enough, we will impact ecosystems if we continue to do that. We
scrounge for manure, in cities where keeping farm animals and chickens is
closely regulated or illegal (and humanure is a huge solution here, in one of
the most densely populated counties in the US, but there is a lot of
resistance on personal and policy levels still).

Beached seaweed in Florida is almost an ecosystem in its own right, with
various creatures, including migratory birds, dependent upon it. Those of us
who are looking from a systems viewpoint are asking questions about how we
are going to produce enough fertile soil, using only our local organic matter
without imports, to feed our populations in Florida.

We are surrounded by water and ocean fish, but the seafood populations around
here have already been severely depleted. We are fortunate to not have to
deal with the Corexit poisoning or "Dead Zone" created by Midwest agriculture
in the Gulf - the ocean currants keep that away from us, for the most part.
But other coastal areas in the Gulf have quite a problem on that front.

Going fishing is a short term, small solution but not a long term solution
for the whole population. We do have dozens of lakes and ponds in the area
and could explore systems that integrate with existing pond ecosystems, like
islands (I'd love to talk to someone who is doing that successfully).

We have some experimental ocean fish farms happening in the area (fish raised
in protected cages in the ocean), which makes sense if you're going to
enclose fish. They get all their minerals and some of their food naturally.
If the farms get too big, they will impact the coastline ocean ecosystems.
The Eritrea system sounds wonderful on many fronts - I like that they are
staying away from the coastline which is such a vital and productive edge in
many places when left to Zone 5.

Kathryn, is anybody using nutrients from seawater in aquaponics, and if so,
how are they removing the salt and other things that don't work in the
system? I've heard that there is some saltwater aquaponics occurring which
might make a lot of sense near oceans where the minerals could be easily
accessed.

I feel that it is vital that permaculturists influence aquaponics. The people
I've spoken to are open to that. I attended the aquaponics conference in
Florida last year, to see what it was all about, and there were many
dedicated people working to improve the technology. I didn't meet anybody who
was totally closed off to the idea of integrating permaculture principles and
a number of them had heard about permaculture and were trying to use it in
some fashion. The head of the International Aquaponics Association told me
that she is aware that they need to work on the nutrition area to reduce
footprint (the fish food is ), and is interested in doing so, as an
Association. I think we need to reach out, not draw back, and bring the
principles to the subject to make it as workable as possible. We need a
diversity of solutions and aquaponics makes a lot of sense from a number of
angles, in cities especially.

There is one situation - if we figure out how to feed dense populations in
high rises, and if we figure out how to produce renewable energy in high
rises or locally (like algae fuels, hydrogen/solar combos, etc), judging by
history, we will continue propagate and expand until the whole planet is
covered with us. But the fact that permaculturists might see the downside to
that is not going to stop the Aquaponics Association or the "free energy"
people from looking for those solutions.

All of which make me feel that it is vital to continue to educate people and
raise their ethics level and consciousness so we have more people in all
sectors who can make "whole systems" decisions. And thank you again Kathryn
for sharing with us information and viewpoints that help us to better make
those decisions. Sharing these viewpoints with each other will only make our
systems stronger, ultimately. I love doing team designs for that reason -
inevitably, someone on the team thinks of something that no one else did and
the design is the better for it. I'm thankful for permaculture email lists
where this kind of conversation can happen.

Best, Koreen

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition

________________________________
From: Pierre Marx <pierremarx@ymail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics

Oops, should have read Kathryn's response first before chiming in. Well said
Kathryn.

Cheers

Pierre Marx

>________________________________
>From: "KAKerby@aol.com" <KAKerby@aol.com>
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2012 12:45 PM
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics
>
>OK, I've been gone for a number of hours, a bunch of emails on this topic
>have come in, and I'd like to address some of these statements in turn.
>But it'll be in summary form, so hopefully no one takes offense that I'm
>just trying to answer things as quickly as possible.
>
>First, aquaponics is most definitely an aerobic setup. The claims made
>about faster growth are precisely because aquaponics is MUCH MORE aerobic
>than standard soil-based farming. The roots are exposed to much greater
>rates
>and volumes of gas exchange, so poor gas exchnage is no longer a
>bottleneck for plant growth rates. That exchange rate can be varied
>depending on
>both the system design and the cycling rate. One of the three major
>hydroponic and aquaponic methods, known as flood-and-drain, features a
>container of
>planting media and intact plants which is repeatedly flooded, then
>drained, then flooded again, at whatever cycle is appropriate for the
>plants. So
>you could have system conditions ranging from near-saturation to
>near-desert rates of moisture for the root zone, whatever the plants need.
>With that
>system, each new influx of water fills the container, thus driving out any
>atmosphere (mix of O2, CO2 and N2 and trace elements) from the root zone.
>That "flood" stage is generally the shorter of the two phases. The longer
>"drain" stage draws atmosphere back down deep into the root zone, for a
>dramatically faster gas exchange rate than would ever occur in soil-based
>growing. The other two most popular setups, Nutrient Flow Technique and
>Floating Raft Technique, generally feature part of the root mass submerged,
>and
>part of the root mass in an extremely high-humidity but non-submerged
>atmosphere. So again, there's no drowning or anaerobic conditions. If a
>hydro-
>or aquaponics system ever goes anaerobic, something is very dramatically
>wrong.
>
>Second, I concur wholeheartedly that soil is a precious commodity, and
>should be treasured as such. So the comment that someone was turned off by
>seeing a photo of an aquaponics system in the foreground, then very tidy
>inedible landscaping in the background, is a philosophical objection I would
>
>share. However, I have to point out that it wasn't a valid indicator on
>whether aquaponics can or cannot be part of a sustainable setup. Rather,
>it
>was merely an indication of that particular person's taste in landscaping.
>You could take that same setup, and put it in a poor village in some
>distant
>poverty-stricken nation, and perhaps feel better about the fact that it's
>feeding everyone in the village. Same system. And there are countless
>variations on that system to match up with needs all around the world. So
>if
>some aquaponics fan had a front yard that didn't meet up with your personal
>preferences for landscaping, that's hardly an indictment against the
>approach as a whole.
>
>Also on the topic of soils, I would point out that merely having access to
>soils does not guarantee that folks can grow what they need, as much as
>they need, and when they need it, on those soils. Or even if they could
>grow
>what they need during ideal years, conditions might be so unpredictable
>that they couldn't count on those soils to produce what they need, year
>after
>year. We live in one of the most productive agricultural areas of the
>world. We are greatly blessed that we can work with both forested and rich
>fertile floodplain soils. We have a mild climate, with a nice long growing
>season. But even here, there are things we can't grow reliably, including
>staples like corn and alfalfa. Try feeding 100 head of livestock without
>those two staples, and you'll be up at night trying to balance your feed
>ration with whatever you can scrounge instead. Been there, done that. We
>are
>very fortunate to be able to go out and buy those materials when we can't
>grow them. But other families and other farms in other places aren't
>nearly
>that lucky. They must eat from whatever they can grow. Even when the
>soils are just right in terms of fertility, tilth, moisture, temperature
>and
>solar exposure, one storm, one flood, one early frost or late frost or any
>other combo of "bad luck" events, can wreck the crop. In some fortunate
>parts of the world, that's not a big deal. We buy in what we need to
>replace
>what we lost. Other folks aren't so lucky, and they go hungry. Aquaponics
>removes a lot of that variability. That's why we want to use it here. It
>would be our backup for those crops which are iffy at best even in our
>prime agricultural area. And it will allow us to grow some critical crops
>which, despite our near-ideal setup, we still can't grow here.
>
>The question of equipment and volunteers and employees is a complication,
>which ironically makes aquaponics shine even brighter. We are in WA state,
>USA. It might surprise folks to learn that we CANNOT have farm volunteers
>here. It's against state law. We can either have interns, that must be
>enrolled in a public school and taking a class for credit in which we are a
>formal part of the curriculum, or we can have employees, paid at least
>minimum wage, and fully insured under our farm insurance coverage plan.
>And now
>proposed federal law, which didn't pass this year but very well might in
>the future, states that family members must be "immediate family", ie,
>spouse, children and parents. Cousins and aunts and uncles and
>grandparents/grandkids, etc, would not be considered family, and thus would
>be required to
>be hired, for at least minimum wage, with full insurance coverage. So as
>neat as it sounds to have some big farm in the family, working that farm
>requires some careful thought because manpower is no longer quite so easy
>to
>access.
>
>OK, so if we can't have lots of people, let's get some large-scale
>machinery in here instead. Sadly, that's not very practical either. A
>70hp
>tractor, and all the implements listed in a previous post, would cost more
>than
>our house is worth. We have a 20 hp tractor that was manufactured the same
>year my dad was born. Our haying equipment was made when draft animal
>power was still in use in the USA, and that equipment can be drawn either
>with
>our small tractor or a team. We shopped very carefully for that
>equipment, and saved a great deal of money, by buying smaller than everyone
>said
>we'd need. We didn't finance any of it. Yet it still set us back quite a
>bit
>financially, and we still have repairs to make before any of it is field
>ready. So yes, a lot of folks are having serious problems getting into
>farming, because even if they have access to land they need either manpower
>or
>machinery to work it, and both of those options are not nearly as easy to
>come by as they used to be.
>
>Which brings us to aquaponics. Because machinery and manpower are both so
>expensive here, we have to make the absolute best use of our time, at a
>scale that we can reasonably accommodate without either equipment or
>employees. One of the major questions we're facing right now with this
>bigger
>farm, is whether we want to take on all that extra work, knowing that we'd
>have
>to have employees (thankfully, we'd have access to their machinery instead
>of buying it ourselves). But I can produce the same products via
>aquaponics that I manage by myself, as I can with field crops requiring a
>lot of
>expensive equipment and/or hired help. That's because of two things.
>First,
>it is so much more productive per square foot than any soil-based system.
>Second, it allows for harvests in small batches, rather than one
>all-or-nothing harvest. I've known of growers who raise just enough feed
>for their
>animals to last one day with aquaponics. They plant one tray per day, they
>harvest one tray per day. The rest of the trays are growing and don't
>need to be messed with other than watering. The manpower is minimal, and
>they're doing the work I'd have to have machinery AND manpower to
>successfully
>harvest in the field. And that's only if the weather cooperates. If the
>weather doesn't cooperate, or the machinery breaks down, or the manpower
>quits or is busy or sick or otherwise unavailable, that harvest rots.
>Shucks,
>that's too bad. And most years, at least one of those issues comes along.
>Try telling your family that they don't get to eat because the tractor
>blew a hydraulic seal. Aquaponics has its own list of woes, but they don't
>tend to be quite so dramatic, so costly, or so all-or-nothing in scale.
>
>Finally, I know a lot of folks will puzzle about this next question, but we
>believe it is utter folly to farm with anything less than profitable
>outcomes. We subscribe to the theory that for any farm to be truly
>sustainable, it must meet the Three E's: Environmental, Ethical and
>Economical
>Sustainability. So everything we do here, is for the love of the land and
>love
>of the life, but it's also how we pay the bills. If we can't pay the
>bills,
>for instance if we borrowed money to buy all that nice big machinery, we
>won't be farming very long. And then all this nice talk about sustainable
>this-n-that goes right out the window. The next guy comes along and
>converts all this wonderful farmland into condos. Or a junkyard for old
>cars. Or
>a landfill. Or whatever. I know some folks farm because they want to.
>Some folks farm because they have to, since they can't get food otherwise.
>We farm because we feel called to do so, but we must meet those 3 E's in
>order to continue doing so for any length of time. Again, aquaponics
>removes
>a lot of the harvest uncertainty, and thus the financial uncertainty, from
>this gig called farming. That means it's not merely a nice tool in the
>toolbox. For us that means it's borderline essential. Farming without it
>is
>riskier than it needs to be.
>
>I guess after all this, I would suggest that folks can decide they're not
>interested in aquaponics, and that's fine. They can decide they don't want
>to use aquaponics, and that's also fine. They can decide wow there's more
>here than they realized, go learn about it, and maybe implement it or maybe
>not, according to their own needs and interests. All that is fine. Where
>I tend to get twitchy, is when folks hear the term "aquaponics", and they
>only know a little about it, and they start making assumptions about it,
>and then they start making opinions and decisions based on those
>assumptions.
>Or worse, start advising people based on those assumptions. I would
>strongly encourage folks to learn about this approach before forming
>opinions
>about it. Don't just go with what you've seen in the headlines, or on
>Youtube, or heard someone say that someone said that someone said that it's
>just
>a bunch of hooey. Either learn about it, and speak from a position of
>knowledge and experience. Or simply say "well, I've heard about it but
>don't
>know much about it, so I can't really say." That's all I ask.
>Kathryn Kerby
>frogchorusfarm.com
>Snohomish, WA
>
>
>
>In a message dated 10/8/2012 2:23:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>dhondt@eircom.net writes:
>
>
>My problem with aquaphonics is not just disolved chemicals aka nutrients.
>Soil is an ecosystem consisting for at least ten % out of microorganisms
>and
>often a lot more. To a large extend these soil organisms are aerobic. It
>is
>as good as impossible to maintain a large aerobic community in water.
>john
>
>> On 10/7/2012 9:52 PM, Scott Pittman wrote:
>>> I too have serious misgivings about aquaponics. It is always presented
>>> as
>>> some kind of perpetual motion machine that provides for all its needs
>>> within
>>> the system, which I doubt. I also do not believe that it could
>possible
>>> have the nutrients necessary for providing wholesome and nutritious
>>> foodstuff. We are talking about the primary nutrient source being fish
>>> dung
>>> in this closed system, where does the selenium, calcium and phosphorous
>>> come
>>> from? The co-evolution of plants with soil organisms and minerals has
>>> created the human nutrition story and without soil I think the actual
>>> nutrient content will be woefully inadequate.
>>
>> I would never try to grow food for myself in an aquaponics system unless
>> its nutrients came from extracts of soil-based systems (don't quite know
>> how that would work given the anaerobic aspects of aquaponics systems. I
>> did find through a Google search a site with pictures of a soil-based
>> aquaponics system but they were growing ornamental aquatic plants in
>> submerged perforated barrels with a soil mix in them. The root crowns of
>> the plants were slightly above water level.
>>
>>> I would love to see some data on nutrient content of hydroponic vs soil
>>> based vegetables.
>>
>> There is probably no comparison with the nutrient dense food crops grown
>> in enriched soil with balanced nutrients and minerals.
>>
>>> I would also point out that both the rice paddy system and chinampa
>>> systems
>>> are soil based systems with a lot of water to maintain growth they are
>>> not
>>> by any means hydroponic or aquaponic. You might also throw in the fast
>>> disappearing mangroves as an example of aquaponics but again you would
>be
>>> wrong.
>>
>> In Eritrea they are developing an array of sustainable farming systems
>> that use sea water, They impound water in lagoons and grow shrimp in
>> them. That nutrient-rich water is released down stream to fertilize and
>> irrigate salt-tolerant land based crops. These crops are used to human
>> as well as livestock feed and to make rope or cloth. They are also
>> propagating, planting and harvesting mangroves for firewood, livestock
>> feed and construction wood. They are not reducing the populations of
>> mangroves along the coastline where their project is located. There is a
>> PBS documentary about this well worth watching, maybe viewable online or
>> for $$$ for the dvd.
>>
>> LL
>>
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 08:17:32 2012
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 05:17:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
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Subject: [permaculture] Cuba Convergence
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I'd like to contact those who are putting together the Cuba Convergence to
float an idea I had about it. Who would that be?

Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
>From stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com Tue Oct 9 09:33:09 2012
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From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
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Cc: Roberto perez <ropernicus2002@yahoo.es>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Cuba Convergence
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Cory...copied to Roberto..he's ya man

Steve

On 9 October 2012 14:17, Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'd like to contact those who are putting together the Cuba Convergence to
> float an idea I had about it. Who would that be?
>
> Koreen Brennan
>
> www.growpermaculture.com
> www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
> www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition
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>

--
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart

[permaculture] pc aquaponics, georg parlow, 10/07/2012
- Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics, Steve Hart, 10/07/2012
  - Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics, christopher nesbitt, 10/07/2012
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        Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics, John D'hondt, 10/08/2012
        
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        Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics, John D'hondt, 10/09/2012
        Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics, Toby Hemenway, 10/09/2012
        Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics, christopher nesbitt, 10/09/2012
        
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