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  • From: KAKerby@aol.com
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics
  • Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:32:12 -0400 (EDT)

I've been debating whether to enter the fray, being a new member of the
group and a relatively new farmer as well. But many of the questions about
aquaponics raised so far, have been very well laid to rest by the research
already done. University of the Virgin Islands, under the direction of Dr.
James Rakocy, has done a tremendous amount of research on building, running
and harvesting from an extensive aquaponics system that is used to feed the
student cafeterias. University of Arizona is getting into various aspects
of aquaponics, and when I toured their facility a number of years ago, were
making some interesting progress growing Native American herbs which were
in danger of being harvested into extinction in the wild. Nelson & Pade
in Wisconsin are deeply involved with using aquaponics not only as a
commercial enterprise, but using aquaponics systems to teach kids about the
connections between food production, water quality, wildlife habitat and
that
nothing really leaves Earth's own closed system. So whatever you put into
the
"system", whether it's a single tank or a planet, darn well better not have
toxic results downstream, because we're all ultimately eating whatever is
downstream. Colorado State University, University of Hawaii, University of
Florida and at least one university in Canada (can't remember who at the
moment) are all exploring how aquaponics can help answer local food
production issues, such as drought, heat, cold, high light, low light, high
humidity, etc. The amount of research available out there on aquaponics
performance is already impressive, and steadily growing.

We have a small farm here, and we are renting land on a larger farm 10
miles away. We are definitely soil-based for the most part, and we are
still
going through our first year of organic certification. So I am at least
somewhat familiar with the ideas of managing farms for long-term soil
fertility, carrying capacity, and building the farm to work with instead of
against natural local systems and patterns. I latched onto permaculture a
number
of years ago because it just made so much sense to really go "deep" with
natural systems that can be so amazingly productive and vibrant. But we
also live in the real world, with real bills and real limitations. We rent
land because we can't do everything we need to do here. We have shallow,
stony soils, lots of trees blocking the sun, an eastern aspect which means
our
soils are very slow to warm in springtime, and bedrock only 12" down.
Our rental land has wonderful deep alluvial plain soils, great solar gain,
easy access, and moderated temperature swings because it's close to the
water. But it also reliably floods every year, and some years it doesn't
dry
out until late spring. We are currently debating where we ultimately want
to
be. I can tell you now that commuting between the two is a serious drag,
and I can't really call ourselves even slightly sustainable having to
shuttle between the two. And while I am very in love with soil-based
agriculture, I can say that aquaponics would allow us to condense our
operations into
a single site, either here or there, because that approach would allow us
to "backfill" all the production gaps or challenges that each site has.

Aquaponics is in part being promoted so heavily, and researched so heavily,
specifically because even prime agricultural areas like ours, still have
production issues that need to be solved. Not to mention a whole lot of
folks who have no land at all. Of course it would be wonderful if everyone
had access to good solar exposure, nice deep soils without contamination,
plenty of good clean water, ample growing seasons and enough room to raise
what they want to raise either for themselves or their community. But I
question the wisdom of insisting on soil-based agriculture, if aquaponics
would
allow families or communities in poor growing areas, to raise their own
food with a minimum of inputs, and without harsh chemicals. I believe the
politics, economics and ethics of food self reliance trumps the niceties of
saying everyone needs to grow in soil. I also question whether a farm that
grows in soil, but trucks in all its supplies and trucks out all its
produce, is "better" than someone who raises food via aquaponics in their
backyard
with 1/10 the space, 1/10 the water, 1/1000 of the petroleum, and by the
system design, can't use pesticides or herbicides.

I prefer to think of aquaponics as yet one more tool in the toolbox.
Everyone has options, some have more options than others. If it's a
question
of a family having to go without food, or bring in food from distant places
because their place in the world is poorly situated for growing, then by
all means encourage them to grow their own, using aquaponics. We're headed
towards 9 billion people on this little marble within most of our lifetimes.
Expanses of rich fertile soil may become quite the luxury, quite soon.
Kathryn Kerby
frogchorusfarm.com
Snohomish, WA USA


In a message dated 10/7/2012 6:53:04 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
scott@permaculture.org writes:

I too have serious misgivings about aquaponics. It is always presented as
some kind of perpetual motion machine that provides for all its needs
within
the system, which I doubt. I also do not believe that it could possible
have the nutrients necessary for providing wholesome and nutritious
foodstuff. We are talking about the primary nutrient source being fish
dung
in this closed system, where does the selenium, calcium and phosphorous
come
from? The co-evolution of plants with soil organisms and minerals has
created the human nutrition story and without soil I think the actual
nutrient content will be woefully inadequate.

I would love to see some data on nutrient content of hydroponic vs soil
based vegetables.

I would also point out that both the rice paddy system and chinampa systems
are soil based systems with a lot of water to maintain growth they are not
by any means hydroponic or aquaponic. You might also throw in the fast
disappearing mangroves as an example of aquaponics but again you would be
wrong.

Scott Pittman
Permaculture Institute USA



"Another world is not only possible, she is on her way.
On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing."
~Arundhati Roy

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of christopher
nesbitt
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 2:32 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics

Hi Steve,

I have to disagree with your assessment that aquaponics is "working against
nature". Perhaps you do not understand that aquaponics is using hydroponic
grow beds to filter and oxygenate water in high stocking density
aquaculture, in a recirculating system?

The concept of plants and water is not a new concept. While aquaponics uses
pumps and pipes and electricity, it is not that different to the concept of
paddy rice, or to the chinampa system practiced in Central Mexico by the
Aztecs, which are both time honored and highly productive. Nobody would
consider either of these systems to be "working against nature". Are
electric lights working against nature? Should we return to oil lamps?

One of the limiting factors in aquaculture is the stocking density. Putting
too much fish in the water can result in build up of ammonia and a bloom of
algae, resulting in depletion of oxygen and death of your fish. This is
called eutrophication. Another problem is that veggies and herbs need
certain conditions. Our rainy season here in Belize, for example, is too
wet
to grow cabbage, cucumbers, tomatoes, or the plants will get hammered by
our
rain. We get over 160 inches of rain a year, with up to 8 inches of rain in
a night during the intense rains of June, July and August. You can apply
that to areas with hard freezes, too.

Aquaponics converts the problem of too much nutrients in water into the
solution to how to grow veggies and herbs in a small area. First, it allows
small holders to grow fish in a small area, say a back yard, or a patio,
and
it also allows the production of vegetables. Coupled with a green house in
a
temperate climate, it would either increase your season for veggies, or
make
it year round.

Aquaponics is definitely is a tool to keep in your tool kit. While I would
never imagine aquaponics would replace soil based agriculture, or pond
based
aquaculture, aquaponics lends itself well on places with any of the
following issues:
1. Poor soil
Much of the world has poor soil, and soil based agriculture will give
small
yields.
2. Contaminated soil
In places where the soil, itself, is toxic, aquapnics allows the production
of fresh local veggies and herbs while avoiding taking up toxins in soil
3. Lack of access to water for irrigation
Aquaponics is %90 more efficient with water than soil based agriculture.
Israel is one of the leaders in aquaponics technology.
4. High population density areas, especially urban areas.
Aquaponics can have a very small foot print, can be roof mounted, can be
part of school programs, attached to hospitals. Working with industrial
ecologies toed to surplus energy or nutrients, like day old bread and waste
heat from a bakery, for example, or table scraps fed to vermiculture in a
cafeteria, and the earth worms giving nutrients for the fish, and yeilding
worm castings for gardens, and aquaponics can be integrated into an urban
landscape.

Aquaponics systems range in size from gold fish tanks to many acres of
veggies with thousands of fish in tens of thousands of gallons of water.
Some are expensive, built rom expensive parts, and some are made from old
tanks and barrels. Joels system, in a space 4x8 meters in size, produced
100
kilograms of veggies and over 50 kg of fich in a 6 month period in suburban
Perth. Nobody can say it is not productive.

We are working on an aquaponics system here, and expect it to be up and
running by the end of the year. Limiting factors for us have been having a
large enough photovoltaic system to run it. If anyone is interested in
learning a LOT about aquaponics, check genius Aussie Joel Malcolms web page
www.backyardaquaponics.com. He even has a forum where hundred of people
have
their systems on display.

Best wishes,

Christopher


_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

Country code 501-630-4386

www.mmrfbz.org
www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm




On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Steve Hart wrote:

> Permaculture Aquaponics ?....thats doing sprouts. Interesting debate
Georg.
> I recall a strong cliche and probably a well used principle in
Permaculture
> that states " Work with Nature not Against Her" . Any water plants that
> exist in that world in nature are surely part of an aquaponic system. But
> when we call hydroponics organic and Permaculture someone went to the
wrong
> course or had a very deficient teacher. I like the connection with nature
> for it has so many valuable realms that connect many of our critical
> functions to the elements we receive from that connection. They are not
> simple nutrition but many other levels of energy as well. Then of course
we
> get into another huge debate about appropriate or non -appropriate diets.
> Interesting to see the acceleration in Prana. I look forward to the
> debate....Steve Hart
>
> On 7 October 2012 16:06, georg parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> Being stuck in a city I recently started pondering and researching the
>> idea of aquaponics. The web tells me of Max Meyers doing aquaponics
>> the permaculture way. I am am pc designer myself for almost 20 years
>> now, with moderate experience in counselling, design and
>> implementation. I am wondering what he does differently that any
>> decent permie would not think of my himself? Any experiences? Any
>> reports or details of his approach anywhere on the web?
>>
>> thanks,
>> Georg
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> Kia ora
>
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> Ecology Architect
> skype: stevenlawrencehart
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