permaculture

["John D'hondt" <dhondt@eircom.net>]

I concur,
John

> I too have serious misgivings about aquaponics.  It is always presented as
> some kind of perpetual motion machine that provides for all its needs 
> within
> the system, which I doubt.  I also do not believe that it could possible
> have the nutrients necessary for providing wholesome and nutritious
> foodstuff.  We are talking about the primary nutrient source being fish 
> dung
> in this closed system, where does the selenium, calcium and phosphorous 
> come
> from?  The co-evolution of plants with soil organisms and minerals has
> created the human nutrition story and without soil I think the actual
> nutrient content will be woefully inadequate.
>
> I would love to see some data on nutrient content of hydroponic vs soil
> based vegetables.
>
> I would also point out that both the rice paddy system and chinampa 
> systems
> are soil based systems with a lot of water to maintain growth they are not
> by any means hydroponic or aquaponic. You might also throw in the fast
> disappearing mangroves as an example of aquaponics but again you would be
> wrong.
>
> Scott Pittman
> Permaculture Institute USA
>
>
>
> "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way.
> On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing."
> ~Arundhati Roy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of christopher
> nesbitt
> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2012 2:32 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] pc aquaponics
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I have to disagree with your assessment that aquaponics is "working 
> against
> nature". Perhaps you do not understand that aquaponics is using hydroponic
> grow beds to filter and oxygenate water in high stocking density
> aquaculture, in a recirculating system?
>
> The concept of plants and water is not a new concept. While aquaponics 
> uses
> pumps and pipes and electricity, it is not that different to the concept 
> of
> paddy rice, or to the chinampa system practiced in Central Mexico by the
> Aztecs, which are both time honored and highly productive. Nobody would
> consider either of these systems to be "working against nature". Are
> electric lights working against nature? Should we return to oil lamps?
>
> One of the limiting factors in aquaculture is the stocking density. 
> Putting
> too much fish in the water can result in build up of ammonia and a bloom 
> of
> algae, resulting in depletion of oxygen and death of your fish. This is
> called eutrophication. Another problem is that veggies and herbs need
> certain conditions. Our rainy season here in Belize, for example, is too 
> wet
> to grow cabbage, cucumbers, tomatoes, or the plants will get hammered by 
> our
> rain. We get over 160 inches of rain a year, with up to 8 inches of rain 
> in
> a night during the intense rains of June, July and August. You can apply
> that to areas with hard freezes, too.
>
> Aquaponics converts the problem of too much nutrients in water into the
> solution to how to grow veggies and herbs in a small area. First, it 
> allows
> small holders to grow fish in a small area, say a back yard, or a patio, 
> and
> it also allows the production of vegetables. Coupled with a green house in 
> a
> temperate climate, it would either increase your season for veggies, or 
> make
> it year round.
>
> Aquaponics is definitely is a tool to keep in your tool kit. While I would
> never imagine aquaponics would replace soil based agriculture, or pond 
> based
> aquaculture, aquaponics lends itself well on places with any of the
> following issues:
> 1. Poor soil
> Much of the world has poor soil, and soil based agriculture will give 
> small
> yields.
> 2. Contaminated soil
> In places where the soil, itself, is toxic, aquapnics allows the 
> production
> of fresh local veggies and herbs while avoiding taking up toxins in soil
> 3. Lack of access to water for irrigation
> Aquaponics is %90 more efficient with water than soil based agriculture.
> Israel is one of the leaders in aquaponics technology.
> 4. High population density areas, especially urban areas.
> Aquaponics can have a very small foot print, can be roof mounted, can be
> part of school programs, attached to hospitals. Working with industrial
> ecologies toed to surplus energy or nutrients, like day old bread and 
> waste
> heat from a bakery, for example, or table scraps fed to vermiculture in a
> cafeteria, and the  earth worms giving nutrients for the fish, and 
> yeilding
> worm castings for gardens, and aquaponics can be integrated into an urban
> landscape.
>
> Aquaponics systems range in size from gold fish tanks to many acres of
> veggies with thousands of fish in tens of thousands of gallons of water.
> Some are expensive, built rom expensive parts, and some are made from old
> tanks and barrels. Joels system, in a space 4x8 meters in size, produced 
> 100
> kilograms of veggies and over 50 kg of fich in a 6 month period in 
> suburban
> Perth. Nobody can say it is not productive.
>
> We are working on an aquaponics system here, and expect it to be up and
> running by the end of the year. Limiting factors for us have been having a
> large enough photovoltaic system to run it. If anyone is interested in
> learning a LOT about aquaponics, check genius Aussie Joel Malcolms web 
> page
> www.backyardaquaponics.com. He even has a forum where hundred of people 
> have
> their systems on display.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Christopher
>
>
> _____________________________
> Christopher Nesbitt
>
> Maya Mountain Research Farm
> San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> BELIZE,
> Central America
>
> Country code 501-630-4386
>
> www.mmrfbz.org
> www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Steve Hart wrote:
>
> > Permaculture Aquaponics ?....thats doing sprouts. Interesting debate
> Georg.
> > I recall a strong cliche and probably a well used principle in
> Permaculture
> > that states " Work with Nature not Against Her" . Any water plants that
> > exist in that world in nature are surely part of an aquaponic system. But
> > when we call hydroponics organic and Permaculture someone went to the
> wrong
> > course or had a very deficient teacher. I like the connection with nature
> > for it has so many valuable realms that connect many of our critical
> > functions to the elements we receive from that connection. They are not
> > simple nutrition but many other levels of energy as well. Then of course
> we
> > get into another huge debate about appropriate or non -appropriate diets.
> > Interesting to see the acceleration in Prana. I look forward to the
> > debate....Steve Hart
> >
> > On 7 October 2012 16:06, georg parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi there,
> > >
> > > Being stuck in a city I recently started pondering and researching the
> > > idea of aquaponics. The web tells me of Max Meyers doing aquaponics
> > > the permaculture way. I am am pc designer myself for almost 20 years
> > > now, with moderate experience in counselling, design and
> > > implementation. I am wondering what he does differently that any
> > > decent permie would not think of my himself? Any experiences? Any
> > > reports or details of his approach anywhere on the web?
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > Georg
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> >
> > --
> > Kia ora
> >
> > [image: Picture]
> > *Steve Hart*
> > Ecology Architect
> > skype: stevenlawrencehart
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