permaculture

[Dick Pierce <dickpiercedesigns@gmail.com>]

"Let's not talk to each other like this" - Right on and
Amen.....Please/Thanks

Toby, you are so right on in what you say and, from personal experience I
can say, even more right on in what you do and the incredibly-appreciated
multiple places and ways and audiences where you do it. I'm glad that you
seem to have a ducks back for this to roll off of and a tough enough skin
with which to blunt the arrows. Bless you for what you do, for all that you
teach, and all that we learn from you.

I am going to try to avoid reading any more on this thread. It is souring me
on the whole, mostly interesting/civil listserve. The shame of it to me is
that the core of Nicholas' message is right on - one at a time, individuals
trained and converted can influence organizations over time, etc. The core
is right on - but the 1st paragraph and last sentence are off-topic,
inappropriate, very un-necessary, and detract from the message and the
communication.

Let's do stop talking like this to each other, please. Perhaps it is time
for some moderating/editing/ rejecting on the part of the listserve
moderators or the listserve participants at large.

Dick Pierce
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Toby Hemenway 
<toby@patternliteracy.com>wrote:

> Nicholas,
>
> You are profoundly ignorant of where and how I work (I'm on the Blackfeet
> Reservation at the moment) and your angry assumptions don' help anything .
> Let's not talk to each other like this.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2010, at 11:06 PM, Nicholas Roberts, Permaculture.coop wrote:
>
> > Toby, what I find so disturbing about your argument for teaching PDCs
> > to anyone, is the hermetic nature of your argument. You're ideas might
> > seem find from the suburbs of Oregon, but from where I sit, its the
> > kind of technocratic managerialism that pervaded liberalism during the
> > Vietnam war where agrarian reform and safe hamlets, winning the hearts
> > and minds was the mission of the enlightened elites. Maybe you cant think
> of anything,  >but maybe you need to get out more.
> >
> *> Overall, I
> >>> don' t think a corporation or military can be made any worse for
> learning
> >>> permaculture, and I think I personally am engaging in Earth and people
> care
> >>> when I teach them, even if their own mission isn't. Institutions like
> >>> corporations are way ahead of us in thinking up clever ways to screw up
> the
> >>> world; we won't make them better at that. But by being exposed to the
> >>> ecological and ethical basis of permaculture, individuals in the
> >>> organization will be transformed, and perhaps even the organization
> itself.
> >>> I've seen it happen. One at a time; that's how I do it.*



> If that's outside your ethical framework; so be it.
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