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  • From: Grover Stock <foodforest@earthlink.net>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 27
  • Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:55:21 -0500

re: attack on worm castings,
just got this reply from the DPR thought it might be of some interest to the group,
happy day to all,
grover stock
Dear Mr. Stock:
The California Department of Pesticide Regulation (DPR) began
investigating George Hahn’s Wormgold products in August 2004 in
response to complaints that they were being marketed to repel bark
beetles in Southern California.

The investigation found that Hahn had three products being marketed as
pesticides even though they had not been registered by the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA) or DPR. Pesticides must be
registered by U.S. EPA and DPR before they can be used in California.

In 2000, Hahn approached U.S. EPA seeking to register one of his
products as a pesticide. U.S. EPA was reluctant to do so because the
microorganisms in the products could not be sufficiently identified and
could be harmful to humans or plants. U.S. EPA scientists also were
concerned about the existence of pathogens in worm castings and the
possible impact on human health.

U.S. EPA advised Hahn, by letter on July 12, 2001, that he could not
make any pesticidal claims on the product label or advertising such as
the Internet under the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide
Act (FIFRA) until the product was registered as a pesticide, and
suggested he register the product as a fertilizer only under less
stringent requirements. Although Hahn declined to pursue registration
with EPA further, he continued to aggressively market the products as
pesticides.

The federal and state definitions of pesticides are not limited to
“killing pests.” The definition of a pesticide is a substance
that is intended to be used to “prevent, destroy, repel or mitigate”
a pest. DPR is the state agency that enforces FIFRA in California under
a memorandum of understanding with U.S. EPA, as well as enforcing the
Food and Agricultural Code sections relating to pesticide sale and use.

From April 2003 through June 2005, Mr. Hahn made more than $1.6 million
on the Wormgold products he aggressively marketed as pesticides in
California. He claimed that the products could repel insects and
control fungus. At one retail store, Wormgold was sold as a slug
killer.

In 2008, DPR issued a “notice of proposed action” against Hahn and
several of his companies that called for an administrative penalty of
$110,000 for the illegal sale of unregistered pesticides. Hahn requested
an administrative hearing.

On May 13-14, 2009, a hearing was held before Administrative Law Judge
(ALJ) Ed Lowry in Sacramento. At the hearing, Hahn testified that his
products work by feeding the worms a special diet that increases
“chitinase” in the worm castings. At no time has Hahn stated
that the product works by exuding an odor that repels pests. Testimony
at the hearing demonstrated that Hahn buys worm castings from a company
that grows the worms and feeds them a diet of cardboard sludge, a
byproduct of the paper industry. DPR disputes that these wormcastings
are natural or organic, but asserts that Hahn’s products are
manufactured. DPR scientists dispute Hahn’s assertion that the
products have any pesticidal capabilities and have concern as to the
safety of the products. Wormgold Plus is manufactured by adding other
substances that are recognized fertilizers -- kelp, fossilized kelp and
rock mineral. Tree Rescue Solution consists of Wormgold Plus, molasses,
humic acid, oak flour, air, water and brine. These are not natural or
organic products.

Lowry found that “there can be no question that insect control,
mitigation, and repellency was touted in a way that makes the products
pesticides under the Act.” Further, Lowry found that Hahn was advised
by U.S. EPA that he could not advertise his products as pesticides and
thus “it put Mr. Hahn, his consultant, and his business on notice that
pesticidal claims in whatever form converted the products into
pesticides under the law.” Lowry also specifically found that
Hahn’s products are not produced by nature. “Instead, they are
the product of a non-
natural process in which worms are fed industrially
created cardboard where Mr. Hahn’s best guess is that the glue in the
cardboard elevates the chitinase in the worm castings.” Lowry ordered
Hahn to pay a $100,000 administrative penalty.

Mr. Hahn appealed this ruling in Sacramento Superior Court. Last month,
that issued a tentative ruling against him.

Attached is a copy of the Superior Court decision and the earlier ALJ
decision.

DPR has not determined that Hahn’s product boosts plants’ natural
resistance to pests so that it qualifies as a pesticide. DPR in fact
disputes this assertion. Hahn is free to sell his products as
fertilizers and continues to do so. He cannot, however, sell the
products as pesticides without registration.

DPR’s mission is to protect human health and the environment by
regulating pesticide sales and use, and by fostering reduced-risk pest
management.



Veda Federighi
Director of External Affairs
On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:39 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19 (A Sampson-Kelly)
2. Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
3. Designing a Movement (steve read)
4. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever) (Toby Hemenway)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:01:45 +1000
From: A Sampson-Kelly <april@permaculturevisions.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19
Message-ID: <4C67ACF9.1010500@permaculturevisions.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I wonder why my recent post didn't get into the discussion. any help?

April S-Kelly

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On 13/08/2010 11:15 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
(Cory Brennan)
2. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
(Daniel Mazen Kablaoui)
3. Re: Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
begin. (Scott Pittman)
4. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever) (Cory Brennan)
5. Re: Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
begin. (Andrew McSwain)
6. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
(Andrew McSwain)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US
military)
Message-ID:<774547.30648.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Linda,

I believe that our strength lies in diversity - we work in numerous countries with numerous types of people who come from a wide variety of backgrounds and paradigms. Teaching one class to a group of National Guardsmen hardly puts us "in bed" with an occupying army. It's not unlike planting one nitrogen fixing plant in a monocrop field. The effects won't be felt by the field at all, but who knows where the seeds will spread? This discussion might be more relevant if someone had taken on a contract to train the entire Army or Marine Corp, etc, in permaculture.

Best, Cory

--- On Thu, 8/12/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com<LBUZZELL@aol.com> wrote:


From: LBUZZELL@aol.com<LBUZZELL@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 2:14 PM
Hi Cory,

Thanks for the clarification.? It's true that some
psychiatrists were?
involved as well. Dr. Ewen Cameron is a frightening example
of a healing?
professional gone wrong.

While I agree that the problems with psychologists and
psychiatrists aren't
an exact parallel, I believe it's wise to remember that in
the pioneering
era of? Freud and Jung, when psychiatry and therapy
were as young as
permaculture is? now, the new field of mental health
was reasonably idealistic,
mostly talk? therapy and some notable free care social
initiatives.? We've had?
over 100 years to screw up the profession.? I'm sure
the early pioneers?
would be spinning in their graves at the field's current
drug pushing,?
mind-bending marketing research and military
collusions.? ? Looking at this
history, I still feel it a cautionary tale for any
new? profession thinking of
embedding itself in an occupying army.

And yes of course Scott isn't doing anything like what some
of today's?
mental health military collaborators (what else can you
call them?) are doing,?
but I believe that permaculture should be cautious about
taking even one
tiny? step along that road...

Linda


In a message dated 8/12/2010 1:26:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight
Time,?
cory8570@yahoo.com
writes:

Linda,?

The situation with psychiatrists/psychologists is quite
different than?
permaculture. Mainstream psychiatrists' main activity is
using drugs,?
electroshock, involuntary commitment and other invasive
methods to treat? mental
symptoms - this is not a sustainable practice nor is it
holistic. I am? aware
of the divisive camps within psychology, where some are
more focused on?
holistic, regenerative approaches and some are just
referral services for drug?
companies via MDs or psychiatrists.

"Journey Into Madness" and other? documentation
illustrates how
psychiatrists were in fact behind the CIA mind?
control experiments on unsuspecting
Canadian and US citizens (MKULTRA), drug? and lobotomy
experimentation on
prisoners and minorities, eugenics policies in? the US
and Germany, etc. Some of
the most respected psychiatrists at? Universities were
involved in
military/intelligence operations that led to use? of
torture techniques throughout
the world in various military organizations? (Middle
East, El Salvador, etc).?
Psychiatrists do take the Hippocratic? Oath but
obviously, there are a
number of them that have broken that oath.? They were
not "co-opted" or
corrupted, it was their idea in the first place.? They
(like Dr Ewen Camaron -
"psychic driving") were already doing these?
experiments on their patients before
partnering with the military.

I? can't see Scott (who was one of my instructors for
my PDC) or any of the
rest? of us going down any such road. It is not the
same thing, at all.?

Cory

--- On Thu, 8/12/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com?
<LBUZZELL@aol.com>
wrote:


From: LBUZZELL@aol.com?

<LBUZZELL@aol.com>

Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of? Mr

Pittman (and the US
military)

To:? permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 1:05? PM
you might want to ask permaculture
activist Joshua Fattal? who has? been

arrested by the Iranian government and

accused? of

espionage whether? it

would help him or others? like him that

"permaculture"

is now

? celebrated as a? US army reserve

"hearts and

minds"

???counterinsurgency/sustainment

technique

?
I have to admit? that this point is hard to

disagree

? with.???Permaculture
was perhaps better off when it? was seen as a
politically? neutral Australian
land and? people care system being used in many
countries? with widely?
different governmental systems, from Cuba to the US.
???
Although I'm very sympathetic to Scott's and others'
? eagerness to spread?
permaculture far and wide, I must conclude? that

it was a

mistake for world?
permaculture to get? involved with the

first-world occupying

army in a third?
? world country, however eager the recruits were

to learn

about???permaculture.
?
?
Corporations have but one? motive: profit. Armies

likewise

have but one?
motive: to? use force or other more subtle

enforcement

methods to vanquish???
enemies.? Their aims and even techniques may

appear to

? be beneficient,? but we
must not be naive.? And even if we? view

some military

as "good? guys," how
does? permaculture make the distinction on a

global level

without???politicizing
itself?
?
Permaculture is an? exciting new profession and

deserves to

flourish?
? independent of destructive entanglements.?

I have seen

? similar? problems happen in
my own field of mental health:? psychologists who

got

involved with the
military? developed torture techniques for the

CIA and

were,? alas,? actively
involved at Abu Ghraib.? I realize we

haven't? done

anything? like this yet --
but caution is needed.? The "psychology in the
military"? issue has split the
? American Psychological Association into warring

factions

for???years, some
supporting those involved with the military and
? others? against.?
?
In just this short? dialogue I see the beginnings

of similar

problems in?
? permaculture unless some clear ethical

guidelines are laid

down to? prevent?
permaculture from being used by the military and?

various

governments for their
? own purposes.? Psychiatrists, by the way,

avoided the

problems faced by the?
? psychologists because they take a Hippocratic

oath that

? prevents them from
doing? some of the unfortunate things a?

few

psychologists have done.
?
Linda? Buzzell-Saltzman


? _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:11:50 -0700
From: Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
whatever)
Message-ID:<A37E0474-043E-4D64-96E0-703CAC4D1147@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Word to rafter sass.
We gotta keep it moving.
Show and prove.

You can't stop people; the best put the danks down.

I was thinking of how uncomfortable the lack of design in the system
itself. But. (but) but the stretch of Pc goes all the way past that
idea design. zone 5 Scott Pittman committment witness to reserve, and
maybe Permaculture itself should and will indeed always have its zone 5.

Who wants to step up to the garden rigt outside the kitchen (what's
the kitchen?); who will hold down zone 1. Because - as for allergies -
it sounds like (to Me) there are people who don't have them. They are
being listened to!

But maybe it's not an allergy as much as hereditary condition
(hereditary allergy?)... We will see, we are all different.

Seems like some of em permies don't have it; and zone 1 is what's
happening for them.

Who can make the idea clear; bring the style eminent? There are those
who stick to the ground, working for themselves - what zone is that in
this community?

For we are apparently arranged in a space already - discern yourself
if you can in this context...

Here they are, talking. The relationships exist anyway, and insight is
possible.

Cool discussion (glad I checked in guys)



On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:08 PM, gavinraders@gmail.com wrote:


Beautiful. Thank you Rafter. Great to see this conversation come
around full circle, but even more so, to hear the next generation of
leaders in this movement coming into their own, finding their
eloquent powerful voices, and raising the critical questions that
need to be raised if we are ever going to move permaculture beyond
what it has been. Here's to succession, evolution, and dialectical
engagement within our movement.
Thats all I have time for now. But i take your words with me in the
day-to-day work and struggle. Hope to reconnect soon Rafter!

Gavin Raders
Co-Founder, Planting Justice
www.plantingjustice.org
Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone, powered by CREDO Mobile.

-----Original Message-----
From: rafter sass<rafter@liberationecology.org>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:55:39
To: Northeastern Permaculture (List)<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net

;<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>

Reply-To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)


Many heartfelt thanks to the folks who have been able to engage
with the challenges of this conversation without descending into
name-calling and other juvenilia.

...


Kevin Skvorak has Problems.

Two of them, for the purposes of this conversation. ;)

One of them is a Personal Problem - he seems to have contracted the
modern anarchist's allergy to leadership. The symptoms include
putting critique before curiosity.
I hope he works on this. I think he would be even more effective in
raising critical topics and questions if he did.

The other is NOT a Personal Problem. It's another kind of problem
altogether - a Movement Problem.

He wants to be a part of a movement that practices an engaged and
ongoing dialogue about its own ethics and strategy - and the
actually-existing Permaculture movement can't really be described
this way. Not quite - not yet.

What's standing in the way?
Well, a lot of the movement leadership seems to have contracted the
classic leader's malaise of allergy to critique.
Juvenile defensiveness, on the part of our teachers and public
faces, is a problem that is going to do us real harm, as a movement
- if it isn't mitigated.
Or maybe we all just need to get really good at gentle, soothing,
critique, so that we don't insult or frighten them when we have hard
questions to ask. ;)
(And yes - I definitely respond better to that, too!)

And if that weren't enough, a lot of folks in the movement - along
with most everybody else in the world - don't have a great toolbox
when it comes to thinking about design and strategy at different
scales. What does it even mean to build a movement - or design one?
We aren't well prepared to answer. And we, of all movements, might
want to think hard about the question.

I don't claim to know the answer, but I DO know that it requires
more and different tools than the ones we use to transform an
individual, or regenerate a landscape,
or organize a project, etc. etc.

Individual, project, community, movement, world...
The principles I use to guide my behavior and my relationships are
related, but distinct, from the ones that I bring to creating
strategy for the projects I work on.
The criteria I use to design my projects are related, but distinct
from the ones I use to understand and work with my community.
And the tools I use to engage and enliven my community are related,
but distinct from the ones that I use to build and strategize my
movement.

So for me, arguments that we should go anywhere and teach Pc to
anyone, for anyone, because Pc is automagically transformative, are
wrongheaded.
A good PDC might actually be able to transform anyone that takes it
- but that doesn't mean that teaching that class is good for the
movement.
As Annie Pollock points out, greenwashing is real, and we are
already dealing with the challenges of the Permaculture label being
applied to all kinds of things we don't
want to be associated with.

We could go and teach a PDC at a whites-only Afrikaaner "ecovillage"
like Orania, and maybe it would have a profound impact on the people
who took it.
But (1) most of us would be, shall we say, reluctant? for Pc to be
seen as a tool for building a racially pure Volkstaat, and (2) the
Oranians already identify with Permaculture, so I guess an
ecological holistic worldview WON'T necessarily guide someone out of
an oppressive, ethnocentric social vison.

Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would be bad for the
movement.

(For more evidence that fascism and ecology can survive in the same
brain, look into Rudolph Steiner's theories on race. Or even more
frightening, search Stormfront.org for entries on Permaculture.
Note: the point here is to debunk oversimplified models of change,
and magical thinking about Permaculture education - not to compare
the National Guard project to white supremacy.)

And vice versa: what's bad for the individual or project can be good
for the movement. The lynching of civil rights movement workers
James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner, in 1964, was a
horrific tragedy for them, their friends, and families - and a
historic watershed for the civil rights movement.

The point of these case studies is to say: we may not know how to
design a movement, but
it ain't entirely like designing a PDC.

We are called, by our commitments, ethics, and desires, to figure it
out. With each other.

OK, I'm actually supposed to be packing and moving right now, so I'm
going to cut this off.
What are we doing to do with this movement of ours?


all love, respect, and hard questions,
rafter



rafter sass
Liberation Ecology Project
liberationecology.org
518-567-7407
skype: raughter







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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:56:35 -0600
From: "Scott Pittman"<scott@permaculture.org>
To: "'permaculture'"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture
design, differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
begin.
Message-ID:<51C14E12C51541E6868D4FD4DA8A34BA@ScottPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

What I see most landscape architects doing is infill for architectural
projects with neither group looking for sustainable outcomes. If the two
disciplines were combined it would make a world of good sense. Permaculture
combines both landscape and building in a whole system approach that is
looking to fulfill the ethical requirements of permaculture; these ethical
considerations do not exist, as far as I know, in either architecture or
landscape architecture.

What I am seeing in the architectural field is an attempt to green up with
the Leed Certification program which to me is another cagey way to separate
the client from his pocket book. Energy efficiency should be required of
all construction as it is mandated by permaculture ethics.

I live in a permaculture design and tried to be a demonstration site for a
short time until I realized that all of my time was spent teaching clueless
tourists and the place was going to hell. While I long for demonstration
sites I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless they figure a way to make enough
money from eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as afford to hire a
full time tour guide. This is what Bill Mollison wound up doing when
Tyalgum was operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
scheduling two tours a week.

For my esthetic I believe that a functional pc design is incredible
beautiful and part of that beauty is that it is messy like nature rather
than ordered and Euclidian like humans.

Scott Pittman
Director
Permaculture Institute
www.permaculture.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Storvick [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:55 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other begin.

This is a topic that has been on my mind for some time now. Taking the PDC
course was a life-changing event for me that was a catalyst for further
educational forays. At this point, I am back in college working towards my
A.A.S. in Horticulture Technology - Landscape Design Specialization. It has
been an interesting experience comparing and contrasting methods and
approaches between permaculture and landscape design, and I agree - while
there is considerable overlap, there is much that can and needs to be
reconciled between the two.

Perhaps the primary difference between the two is the focus on either
function (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole systems design etc.)
with permaculture, and form (aesthetics, ornamentalism, subordination to
architectural forms) with landscape design. This is not to say that
permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that traditional landscapes never
contain functional or edible systems, but the primary focus is different.

My own goal is to run a company that does design/build of edible landscapes
using permaculture methods and philosophy, while amping the aesthetic value
and utilizing the technical skills I'm learning while studying traditional
landscape design, sort of a mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
permaculture, edible forest gardening a la Jacke& Toensmeier, the Creasy&
Kourik school of edible landscaping, and traditional garden design.

On a side note - I feel like I hear way too often about "permaculture demo
sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's imaginations, and way too
little about what folks are doing on the ground on their own land for their
own benefit. I'm sure that having demo sites is wonderful for introducing
people to permaculture concepts, but I figure the best "demo" one can offer
is a functioning system that is in place and directly benefiting those
on-site. Live by example, right? I'd rather eke out a decent living
designing permaculture landscapes for people who are going to be eating from
the trees I plant, than make a ton of money putting together a big
demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see how eco-friendly I am"
property that won't be used on a regular basis.

Cheers,

Jon



On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.<
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:


Just a few initial thoughts to try and start a new discussion thread:

It would be worth using the best of both disciplines, especially for those
who offer any kind of landscaping services, where does landscape
architecture and related subfields end and permaculture begin or vice

versa

or how to combine the best of both to practice permaculture and
eco-landscape architecture to the max. The disciplines are very different

in

obvious ways, i.e. certified, bondable industrial landscape plans and on

the

other hand permaculture designs to implement that work as well as their
landscape counterpart in every way, especially being aesthetically

pleasing

and spiritually rewarding (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and Country
Life Movement English cottage gardens).

For those offering services and are looking for substantial jobs for
clients who can afford them I would imagine there would be as many
customers for permaculture site design and implementation as there would

be

for landscape design and installation. I hear from many permaculturists
getting involved in the consultation and design field
that they have found many wealthy clients who invest in raw land and want
to turn it into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there is
"permaculture demonstration site".
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:18:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
whatever)
Message-ID:<182889.64902.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

The movement is already happening, in cooperatives in Venezuala, in farmer's seed burning of Monsanto GMO in Haiti, in small farmer and local food movements all over the world, in local currencies, intentional communities, indigenous uprisings to protect ecosystems, etc, etc. It is even happening in some of the most entrenched institutions such as a few public schools.

An effective way to keep the word permaculture meaning what it actually means is to control the definitions of it. So we need to watch Wiki sites, get our definitions into dictionaries and encyclopedias, etc. And to stay alert to media misdefinitions of it as well and correct them where possible. Having it trademarked helps too. I've always believed that is a strategy for keeping a subject from being co-opted by hostile vested interests. And of course having manuals and textbooks such as Mollison's and Holmgren's work. It's starting to move into the university world as well, with Mollison's textbook as the bedrock of it.

I think that the concerns about one small unit of national guardsmen co-opting permaculture are pretty unreal. There are so many tools that we have that can counteract that. It's created some interesting conversation so I'm glad it came up. I believe that the best way to stay in control of a subject is to be proactive, not to go off in our corners and refuse to associate with people. Universities ae going to start teaching this subject sooner or later. Let's make sure they get it right. It's inevitable that permaculture will move into the mainstream whether we help it or not. Let's be proactive and guide and inform that process as much as possible.

It is certainly possible to manipulate and undermine a movement, but when communities are ready for a certain level of truth, almost nothing can stop that momentum. The Civil Rights movement is a great example of that.

Eloquent, passionate leadership is an important component of the success of movements. We would do well to support our vocal and eloquent spokespeople.

Cory




--- On Thu, 8/12/10, Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
To: "permaculture"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 3:11 PM
Word to rafter sass.
We gotta keep it moving.
Show and prove.

You can't stop people; the best put the danks down.

I was thinking of how uncomfortable the lack of design in
the system itself. But. (but) but the stretch of Pc goes all
the way past that idea design. zone 5 Scott Pittman
committment witness to reserve, and maybe Permaculture
itself should and will indeed always have its zone 5.

Who wants to step up to the garden rigt outside the kitchen
(what's the kitchen?); who will hold down zone 1. Because -
as for allergies - it sounds like (to Me) there are people
who don't have them. They are being listened to!

But maybe it's not an allergy as much as hereditary
condition (hereditary allergy?)... We will see, we are all
different.

Seems like some of em permies don't have it; and zone 1 is
what's happening for them.

Who can make the idea clear; bring the style eminent? There
are those who stick to the ground, working for themselves -
what zone is that in this community?

For we are apparently arranged in a space already - discern
yourself if you can in this context...

Here they are, talking. The relationships exist anyway, and
insight is possible.

Cool discussion (glad I checked in guys)



On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:08 PM, gavinraders@gmail.com
wrote:


Beautiful. Thank you Rafter. Great to see this

conversation come around full circle, but even more so, to
hear the next generation of leaders in this movement coming
into their own, finding their eloquent powerful voices, and
raising the critical questions that need to be raised if we
are ever going to move permaculture beyond what it has been.
Here's to succession, evolution, and dialectical engagement
within our movement.

Thats all I have time for now. But i take your words

with me in the day-to-day work and struggle. Hope to
reconnect soon Rafter!

Gavin Raders
Co-Founder, Planting Justice
www.plantingjustice.org
Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone, powered by CREDO

Mobile.

-----Original Message-----
From: rafter sass<rafter@liberationecology.org>
Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:55:39
To: Northeastern Permaculture (List)<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net >;

<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>

Reply-To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was:

Ethics of whatever)


Many heartfelt thanks? to the folks who have been

able to engage with the challenges of this conversation
without descending into

name-calling and other juvenilia.

...


Kevin Skvorak has Problems.

Two of them, for the purposes of this conversation.

;)

One of them is a Personal Problem - he seems to have

contracted the modern anarchist's allergy to leadership. The
symptoms include putting critique before curiosity.

I hope he works on this. I think he would be even more

effective in raising critical topics and questions if he
did.

The other is NOT a Personal Problem. It's another kind

of problem altogether - a Movement Problem.

He wants to be a part of a movement that practices an

engaged and ongoing dialogue about its own ethics and
strategy - and the actually-existing Permaculture movement
can't really be described this way. Not quite - not yet.

What's standing in the way?
Well, a lot of the movement leadership seems to have

contracted the classic leader's malaise of allergy to
critique.

Juvenile defensiveness, on the part of our teachers

and public faces, is a problem that is going to do us real
harm, as a movement - if it isn't mitigated.

Or maybe we all just need to get really good at

gentle, soothing, critique, so that we don't insult or
frighten them when we have hard questions to ask. ;)

(And yes - I definitely respond better to that, too!)

And if that weren't enough, a lot of folks in the

movement - along with most everybody else in the world -
don't have a great toolbox when it comes to thinking about
design and strategy at different scales. What does it even
mean to build a movement - or design one? We aren't well
prepared to answer. And we, of all movements, might want to
think hard about the question.

I don't claim to know the answer, but I DO know that

it requires more and different tools than the ones we use to
transform an individual, or regenerate a landscape,

or organize a project, etc. etc.

Individual, project, community, movement, world...
The principles I use to guide my behavior and my

relationships are related, but distinct, from the ones that
I bring to creating strategy for the projects I work on.

The criteria I use to design my projects are related,

but distinct from the ones I use to understand and work with
my community.

And the tools I use to engage and enliven my community

are related, but distinct from the ones that I use to build
and strategize my movement.

So for me, arguments that we should go anywhere and

teach Pc to anyone, for anyone, because Pc? is
automagically transformative, are wrongheaded.

A good PDC might actually be able to transform anyone

that takes it - but that doesn't mean that teaching that
class is good for the movement.

As Annie Pollock points out, greenwashing is real, and

we are already dealing with the challenges of the
Permaculture label being applied to all kinds of things we
don't

want to be associated with.

We could go and teach a PDC at a whites-only

Afrikaaner "ecovillage" like Orania, and maybe it would have
a profound impact on the people who took it.

But (1) most of us would be, shall we say, reluctant?

for Pc to be seen as a tool for building a racially pure
Volkstaat, and (2) the Oranians already identify with
Permaculture, so I guess an ecological holistic worldview
WON'T necessarily guide someone out of an oppressive,
ethnocentric social vison.

Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would be

bad for the movement.

(For more evidence that fascism and ecology can

survive in the same brain, look into Rudolph Steiner's
theories on race. Or even more frightening, search
Stormfront.org for entries on Permaculture. Note: the point
here is to debunk oversimplified models of change, and
magical thinking about Permaculture education - not to
compare the National Guard project to white supremacy.)

And vice versa: what's bad for the individual or

project can be good for the movement. The lynching of civil
rights movement workers James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and
Michael Schwerner, in 1964, was a horrific tragedy for them,
their friends, and families - and a historic watershed for
the civil rights movement.

The point of these case studies is to say: we may not

know how to design a movement, but

it ain't entirely like designing a PDC.

We are called, by our commitments, ethics, and

desires, to figure it out. With each other.

OK, I'm actually supposed to be packing and moving

right now, so I'm going to cut this off.

What are we doing to do with this movement of ours?


all love, respect, and hard questions,
rafter



rafter sass
Liberation Ecology Project
liberationecology.org
518-567-7407
skype: raughter







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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:53:51 -0300
From: Andrew McSwain<aeromax.way@gmail.com>
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture
design, differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
begin.
Message-ID:
<AANLkTinDWpmZhFzueBaMd4vJM325M=CibHaZOP_0p9+y@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I agree with your aesthetical considerations. I consider the preference for
messy nature-like gardens based on a commonly overlooked philosophical
principle: that our sense of "order" is really just a streamlining or
cleaning (and i mean that in the sense of what bleach does) of all elements
and interconnections of a system that we consider as impediments or
otherwise useless for that system to accomplish it's human purpose: serving
our personal interests. Creating order in most cases is really just a nice
way to say that you're stripping the system of it's multi- functionality and
ability to find it's own purposes (innovations). Disorder is really just
sharing the space and resources so that other interests can benefit too.

In that sense our sense of order, even when applied to our lawns, is the
perpetuation of our culture of domination and bigotry. And ecosystems are
naturally just and egalitarian (depending on how that word is applied).

Aside from the obvious ecological implications of permaculture in saving
wilderness, providing food security, and regenerating broken soils, one of
the primary reasons for my continued interest in permaculture is as much a
social one as an ecological. It's ability to bridge the gap between an
ecological sense of order and the eucilidean sort used in most schools of
landscape archeitecture.

Perhaps through permaculture's widespread implementation in public spaces
we will start to change our understanding of Order and how we apply that to
our environments. Order is also creating relationships, not just destroying
the ones that serve our immediate ends, and if we can make our cities and
our yards and lawns more like nature, maybe our mindsets will also change
and make room for other opinions, views, and interests that are at times
even contrary to our own!

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Scott Pittman<scott@permaculture.org>wrote:


What I see most landscape architects doing is infill for architectural
projects with neither group looking for sustainable outcomes. If the two
disciplines were combined it would make a world of good sense.
Permaculture
combines both landscape and building in a whole system approach that is
looking to fulfill the ethical requirements of permaculture; these ethical
considerations do not exist, as far as I know, in either architecture or
landscape architecture.

What I am seeing in the architectural field is an attempt to green up with
the Leed Certification program which to me is another cagey way to separate
the client from his pocket book. Energy efficiency should be required of
all construction as it is mandated by permaculture ethics.

I live in a permaculture design and tried to be a demonstration site for a
short time until I realized that all of my time was spent teaching clueless
tourists and the place was going to hell. While I long for demonstration
sites I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless they figure a way to make enough
money from eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as afford to hire a
full time tour guide. This is what Bill Mollison wound up doing when
Tyalgum was operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
scheduling two tours a week.

For my esthetic I believe that a functional pc design is incredible
beautiful and part of that beauty is that it is messy like nature rather
than ordered and Euclidian like humans.

Scott Pittman
Director
Permaculture Institute
www.permaculture.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Storvick [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:55 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other begin.

This is a topic that has been on my mind for some time now. Taking the PDC
course was a life-changing event for me that was a catalyst for further
educational forays. At this point, I am back in college working towards my
A.A.S. in Horticulture Technology - Landscape Design Specialization. It
has
been an interesting experience comparing and contrasting methods and
approaches between permaculture and landscape design, and I agree - while
there is considerable overlap, there is much that can and needs to be
reconciled between the two.

Perhaps the primary difference between the two is the focus on either
function (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole systems design etc.)
with permaculture, and form (aesthetics, ornamentalism, subordination to
architectural forms) with landscape design. This is not to say that
permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that traditional landscapes never
contain functional or edible systems, but the primary focus is different.

My own goal is to run a company that does design/build of edible landscapes
using permaculture methods and philosophy, while amping the aesthetic value
and utilizing the technical skills I'm learning while studying traditional
landscape design, sort of a mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
permaculture, edible forest gardening a la Jacke& Toensmeier, the Creasy&
Kourik school of edible landscaping, and traditional garden design.

On a side note - I feel like I hear way too often about "permaculture demo
sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's imaginations, and way too
little about what folks are doing on the ground on their own land for their
own benefit. I'm sure that having demo sites is wonderful for introducing
people to permaculture concepts, but I figure the best "demo" one can offer
is a functioning system that is in place and directly benefiting those
on-site. Live by example, right? I'd rather eke out a decent living
designing permaculture landscapes for people who are going to be eating
from
the trees I plant, than make a ton of money putting together a big
demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see how eco-friendly I am"
property that won't be used on a regular basis.

Cheers,

Jon



On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.<
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:


Just a few initial thoughts to try and start a new discussion thread:

It would be worth using the best of both disciplines, especially for

those

who offer any kind of landscaping services, where does landscape
architecture and related subfields end and permaculture begin or vice

versa

or how to combine the best of both to practice permaculture and
eco-landscape architecture to the max. The disciplines are very different

in

obvious ways, i.e. certified, bondable industrial landscape plans and on

the

other hand permaculture designs to implement that work as well as their
landscape counterpart in every way, especially being aesthetically

pleasing

and spiritually rewarding (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and Country
Life Movement English cottage gardens).

For those offering services and are looking for substantial jobs for
clients who can afford them I would imagine there would be as many
customers for permaculture site design and implementation as there would

be

for landscape design and installation. I hear from many permaculturists
getting involved in the consultation and design field
that they have found many wealthy clients who invest in raw land and want
to turn it into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there is
"permaculture demonstration site".
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 23:58:12 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19
Message-ID: <4C68B754.2080807@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 8/15/2010 5:01 AM, A Sampson-Kelly wrote:
I wonder why my recent post didn't get into the discussion. any help?

It did as this one did. Good idea not to send a complete digest's worth
of text in a reply like this if it can be avoided, though, if at all
possible. Tnx. that was a lot of stuff that went out to about 950
people. If you send email to permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
and you are subscribed the post will always end up here.
Tnx again.
LL


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:17:19 +0200
From: steve read <permaculturefr@free.fr>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement
Message-ID: <4C68BBCF.1030602@free.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

The 72 hr course is as far as I'm concerned an introduction to
permaculture and far from bein the basis for an instant career, unless
as is sometimes the case someone has already loads on board.

An advantage of the teaching teams is that apprentices are exposedd to
each others areas of expertise and are also under the guidance of an
experienced permaculteur.

I never felt in any case that the the Aus list of 'accreited designers'
was very effective, nor the Brit list where designers of 20 years +
experience seem simply lumped together with neophytes.

I would be supportive of a distributed nodal form of quality control.
also here we have continued the tradition expounded by Mollison that
people who have completed a PDC can participate in other PDC's just
paying for their board and lodging, this also helps quality ccontrol as
they then give feedback on the courses run by various teachers, we
intend to publish thses feedbacks on the UPP website.

Steve Read



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:38:59 -0600
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
whatever)
Message-ID: <58DFBB93-6334-48BE-A16F-4AE93C385BBB@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

rafter wrote:

Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would be bad for the movement.

I think this gets to one of the central confusions of this discussion, and why at times we are talking past each other (and BTW, I know someone who taught a PDC for white ideologists, who told me that a lot of important insights came out--for the instructor as well).

I think we fall into two camps: those who view permaculture as a movement, and those who view it as a design approach. Of course, most of us--myself included--hold portions of both views, but I think one will predominate in each person.

If you think of Pc as a movement, then we are activists who are trying to transform people's view of the world, and we need everyone to see it our way. We are right. Permaculture is then a worldview, an ideology of sorts, and people need to do it our way, or the wrong side will win. And our ideology needs to remain pure and uncorrupted. If the wrong people infiltrate us, permaculture will become tainted, ruined, and it will turn into something we don't want. You are either following it or not; you're with us or against us, and if you are against us, you need to be transformed.You can see that I don't like the idea of Pc being a movement, even though I'm often caught up in its evangelical qualities. And it's not a big step from being a movement to being a cult, which some accuse permaculture of being. Some of the arguments made here are almost cult-like: we have secret knowledge that needs to be kept from the army or they will do harm with it.

Or the other view: If permaculture is a design approach, then at its essence it is a set of tools for Earth- and people-care that is not dependent on belief or ideology. It can't be corrupted because its use either does or doesn't follow the ethics and principles, and it stops being permaculture when those are not being adhered to. Or at least we can say it is a poor or incomplete use of permaculture. A person is either a good designer or a poor one. You use the principles in your work or you don't. You use ecological and social metrics to assess whether you've been successful: As biodiversity up? Are people healthy? This puts the responsibility on the user, and not on permaculture as a movement that may be corrupted by bad people.

Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful here: We don't DO permaculture, we USE permaculture in what we do. Activists in a movement do permaculture. Designers use permaculture in what they do. If the army uses permaculture, it will result in Earth care and people care. If it doesn't have that result, then they aren't using permaculture; they are ideologists applying capitalist/corporate ideology to yet another tool they have made poor use of. If we don't teach them permaculture, there is no chance of them doing the good it can do. It cannot make them worse, in my view. It will either be abandoned by them, or it will make them good designers of healthy systems.

Again, I think "go where you are invited" applies. I have no intention of trying to transform the army with permaculture: that's ideology. But if they come to me to ask how they can use permaculture to have ecologically and socially successful and sound projects, I'll be there. The student must be ready for the teacher, or there will be no learning.

And incidentally, I've really appreciated what Rafter and manyy others have written here, especially the Rafter/Scott dialog. Thanks for a thought provoking thread.

And, Cory and all: Permaculture is already being taught in over 25 universities in the US alone, at last count.

And: I absolutely approve, as Kevin suggested, of making the ethics, principles, and curriculum much clearer and less subject to wild interpretations. Hence the need for organizations that link permaculturists together,

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:55 PM, rafter sass wrote:

------------------------------

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