permaculture

[Grover Stock <foodforest@earthlink.net>]

re: attack on worm castings,
just got this reply from the DPR thought it might be of some interest  
to the group,
happy day to all,
grover stock
Dear Mr. Stock:
The California Department of Pesticide Regulation (DPR) began
investigating George Hahn’s Wormgold products in August 2004 in
response to complaints that they were being marketed to repel bark
beetles in Southern California.

The investigation found that Hahn had three products being marketed as
pesticides even though they had not been registered by the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA) or DPR. Pesticides must be
registered by U.S. EPA and DPR before they can be used in California.

In 2000, Hahn approached U.S. EPA seeking to register one of his
products as a pesticide. U.S. EPA was reluctant to do so because the
microorganisms in the products could not be sufficiently identified and
could be harmful to humans or plants.  U.S. EPA scientists also were
concerned about the existence of pathogens in worm castings and the
possible impact on human health.

U.S. EPA advised Hahn, by letter on July 12, 2001, that he could not
make any pesticidal claims on the product label or advertising such as
the Internet under the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide
Act (FIFRA) until the product was registered as a pesticide, and
suggested he register the product as a fertilizer only under less
stringent requirements. Although Hahn declined to pursue registration
with EPA further, he continued to aggressively market the products as
pesticides.

The federal and state definitions of pesticides are not limited to
“killing pests.”  The definition of a pesticide is a substance
that is intended to be used to “prevent, destroy, repel or mitigate”
a pest.  DPR is the state agency that enforces FIFRA in California under
a memorandum of understanding with U.S. EPA, as well as enforcing the
Food and Agricultural Code sections relating to pesticide sale and use.

From April 2003 through June 2005, Mr. Hahn made more than $1.6 million
on the Wormgold products he aggressively marketed as pesticides in
California.  He claimed that the products could repel insects and
control fungus. At one retail store, Wormgold was sold as a slug
killer.

In 2008, DPR issued a “notice of proposed action” against Hahn and
several of his companies that called for an administrative penalty of
$110,000 for the illegal sale of unregistered pesticides. Hahn requested
an administrative hearing.

On May 13-14, 2009, a hearing was held before Administrative Law Judge
(ALJ) Ed Lowry in Sacramento. At the hearing, Hahn testified that his
products work by feeding the worms a special diet that increases
“chitinase” in the worm castings.  At no time has Hahn stated
that the product works by exuding an odor that repels pests. Testimony
at the hearing demonstrated that Hahn buys worm castings from a company
that grows the worms and feeds them a diet of cardboard sludge, a
byproduct of the paper industry.  DPR disputes that these wormcastings
are natural or organic, but asserts that Hahn’s products are
manufactured.  DPR scientists dispute Hahn’s assertion that the
products have any pesticidal capabilities and have concern as to the
safety of the products.  Wormgold Plus is manufactured by adding other
substances that are recognized fertilizers -- kelp, fossilized kelp and
rock mineral. Tree Rescue Solution consists of Wormgold Plus, molasses,
humic acid, oak flour, air, water and brine.  These are not natural or
organic products.

Lowry found that “there can be no question that insect control,
mitigation, and repellency was touted in a way that makes the products
pesticides under the Act.”  Further, Lowry found that Hahn was advised
by U.S. EPA that he could not advertise his products as pesticides and
thus “it put Mr. Hahn, his consultant, and his business on notice that
pesticidal claims in whatever form converted the products into
pesticides under the law.”  Lowry also specifically found that
Hahn’s products are not produced by nature.  “Instead, they are
the product of a non-
natural process in which worms are fed industrially
created cardboard where Mr. Hahn’s best guess is that the glue in the
cardboard elevates the chitinase in the worm castings.” Lowry ordered
Hahn to pay a $100,000 administrative penalty.

Mr. Hahn appealed this ruling in Sacramento Superior Court. Last month,
that issued a tentative ruling against him.

Attached is a copy of the Superior Court decision and the earlier ALJ
decision.

DPR has not determined that Hahn’s product boosts plants’ natural
resistance to pests so that it qualifies as a pesticide.  DPR in fact
disputes this assertion. Hahn is free to sell his products as
fertilizers and continues to do so.  He cannot, however, sell the
products as pesticides without registration.

DPR’s mission is to protect human health and the environment by
regulating pesticide sales and use, and by fostering reduced-risk pest
management.



Veda Federighi
Director of External Affairs
On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:39 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org  
wrote:

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>   1. Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19 (A Sampson-Kelly)
>   2. Re: permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19
>      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   3. Designing a Movement (steve read)
>   4. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever) (Toby  
> Hemenway)
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:01:45 +1000
> From: A Sampson-Kelly <april@permaculturevisions.com>
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19
> Message-ID: <4C67ACF9.1010500@permaculturevisions.com>
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> I wonder why my recent post didn't get into the discussion. any help?
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> On 13/08/2010 11:15 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
> >       (Cory Brennan)
> >    2. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
> >       (Daniel Mazen Kablaoui)
> >    3. Re: Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
> >       differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
> >       begin. (Scott Pittman)
> >    4. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever) (Cory  
> > Brennan)
> >    5. Re: Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
> >       differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
> >       begin. (Andrew McSwain)
> >    6. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
> >       (Andrew McSwain)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
> > To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US
> >         military)
> > Message-ID:<774547.30648.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Linda,
> >
> > I believe that our strength lies in diversity - we work in numerous  
> > countries with numerous types of people who come from a wide  
> > variety of backgrounds and paradigms. Teaching one class to a group  
> > of National Guardsmen hardly puts us "in bed" with an occupying  
> > army. It's not unlike planting one nitrogen fixing plant in a  
> > monocrop field. The effects won't be felt by the field at all, but  
> > who knows where the seeds will spread? This discussion might be  
> > more relevant if someone had taken on a contract to train the  
> > entire Army or Marine Corp, etc, in permaculture.
> >
> > Best, Cory
> >
> > --- On Thu, 8/12/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com<LBUZZELL@aol.com>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > > From: LBUZZELL@aol.com<LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US  
> > > military)
> > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 2:14 PM
> > > Hi Cory,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the clarification.? It's true that some
> > > psychiatrists were?
> > > involved as well. Dr. Ewen Cameron is a frightening example
> > > of a healing?
> > > professional gone wrong.
> > >
> > > While I agree that the problems with psychologists and
> > > psychiatrists aren't
> > >  an exact parallel, I believe it's wise to remember that in
> > > the pioneering
> > > era of? Freud and Jung, when psychiatry and therapy
> > > were as young as
> > > permaculture is? now, the new field of mental health
> > > was reasonably idealistic,
> > > mostly talk? therapy and some notable free care social
> > > initiatives.? We've had?
> > > over 100 years to screw up the profession.? I'm sure
> > > the early pioneers?
> > > would be spinning in their graves at the field's current
> > > drug pushing,?
> > > mind-bending marketing research and military
> > > collusions.? ? Looking at this
> > > history, I still feel it a cautionary tale for any
> > > new? profession thinking of
> > > embedding itself in an occupying army.
> > >
> > > And yes of course Scott isn't doing anything like what some
> > > of today's?
> > > mental health military collaborators (what else can you
> > > call them?) are doing,?
> > > but I believe that permaculture should be cautious about
> > > taking even one
> > > tiny? step along that road...
> > >
> > > Linda
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 8/12/2010 1:26:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight
> > > Time,?
> > > cory8570@yahoo.com
> > > writes:
> > >
> > > Linda,?
> > >
> > > The situation with psychiatrists/psychologists is quite
> > > different than?
> > > permaculture. Mainstream psychiatrists' main activity is
> > > using drugs,?
> > > electroshock, involuntary commitment and other invasive
> > > methods to treat? mental
> > > symptoms - this is not a sustainable practice nor is it
> > > holistic. I am? aware
> > > of the divisive camps within psychology, where some are
> > > more focused on?
> > > holistic, regenerative approaches and some are just
> > > referral services for drug?
> > > companies via MDs or psychiatrists.
> > >
> > > "Journey Into Madness" and other? documentation
> > > illustrates how
> > > psychiatrists were in fact behind the CIA mind?
> > > control experiments on unsuspecting
> > > Canadian and US citizens (MKULTRA), drug? and lobotomy
> > > experimentation on
> > > prisoners and minorities, eugenics policies in? the US
> > > and Germany, etc. Some of
> > > the most respected psychiatrists at? Universities were
> > > involved in
> > > military/intelligence operations that led to use? of
> > > torture techniques throughout
> > > the world in various military organizations? (Middle
> > > East, El Salvador, etc).?
> > > Psychiatrists do take the Hippocratic? Oath but
> > > obviously, there are a
> > > number of them that have broken that oath.? They were
> > > not "co-opted" or
> > > corrupted, it was their idea in the first place.? They
> > > (like Dr Ewen Camaron -
> > > "psychic driving") were already doing these?
> > > experiments on their patients before
> > > partnering with the military.
> > >
> > > I? can't see Scott (who was one of my instructors for
> > > my PDC) or any of the
> > > rest? of us going down any such road. It is not the
> > > same thing, at all.?
> > >
> > > Cory
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 8/12/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com?
> > > <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: LBUZZELL@aol.com?
> > > <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> > >
> > > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of? Mr
> > > Pittman (and the US
> > > military)
> > >
> > > > To:? permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 1:05? PM
> > > > you might want to ask permaculture
> > > > activist Joshua Fattal? who has? been
> > > >
> > > > > arrested by the Iranian government and
> > > accused? of
> > >
> > > > espionage whether? it
> > > >
> > > > > would help him or others? like him that
> > > "permaculture"
> > >
> > > > is now
> > > >
> > > > > ? celebrated as a? US army reserve
> > > "hearts and
> > >
> > > > minds"
> > > >
> > > > > ???counterinsurgency/sustainment
> > > technique
> > >
> > > > ?
> > > > I have to admit? that this point is hard to
> > > disagree
> > >
> > > > ? with.???Permaculture
> > > > was perhaps better off when it? was seen as a
> > > > politically? neutral Australian
> > > > land and? people care system being used in many
> > > > countries? with widely?
> > > > different governmental systems, from Cuba to the US.
> > > > ???
> > > > Although I'm very sympathetic to Scott's and others'
> > > > ? eagerness to spread?
> > > > permaculture far and wide, I must conclude? that
> > > it was a
> > >
> > > > mistake for world?
> > > > permaculture to get? involved with the
> > > first-world occupying
> > >
> > > > army in a third?
> > > > ? world country, however eager the recruits were
> > > to learn
> > >
> > > > about???permaculture.
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > > Corporations have but one? motive: profit. Armies
> > > likewise
> > >
> > > > have but one?
> > > > motive: to? use force or other more subtle
> > > enforcement
> > >
> > > > methods to vanquish???
> > > > enemies.? Their aims and even techniques may
> > > appear to
> > >
> > > > ? be beneficient,? but we
> > > > must not be naive.? And even if we? view
> > > some military
> > >
> > > > as "good? guys," how
> > > > does? permaculture make the distinction on a
> > > global level
> > >
> > > > without???politicizing
> > > > itself?
> > > > ?
> > > > Permaculture is an? exciting new profession and
> > > deserves to
> > >
> > > > flourish?
> > > > ? independent of destructive entanglements.?
> > > I have seen
> > >
> > > > ? similar? problems happen in
> > > > my own field of mental health:? psychologists who
> > > got
> > >
> > > > involved with the
> > > > military? developed torture techniques for the
> > > CIA and
> > >
> > > > were,? alas,? actively
> > > > involved at Abu Ghraib.? I realize we
> > > haven't? done
> > >
> > > > anything? like this yet --
> > > > but caution is needed.? The "psychology in the
> > > > military"? issue has split the
> > > > ? American Psychological Association into warring
> > > factions
> > >
> > > > for???years, some
> > > > supporting those involved with the military and
> > > > ? others? against.?
> > > > ?
> > > > In just this short? dialogue I see the beginnings
> > > of similar
> > >
> > > > problems in?
> > > > ? permaculture unless some clear ethical
> > > guidelines are laid
> > >
> > > > down to? prevent?
> > > > permaculture from being used by the military and?
> > > various
> > >
> > > > governments for their
> > > > ? own purposes.? Psychiatrists, by the way,
> > > avoided the
> > >
> > > > problems faced by the?
> > > > ? psychologists because they take a Hippocratic
> > > oath that
> > >
> > > > ? prevents them from
> > > > doing? some of the unfortunate things a?
> > > few
> > >
> > > > psychologists have done.
> > > > ?
> > > > Linda? Buzzell-Saltzman
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ? _______________________________________________
> > > > permaculture mailing? list
> > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Subscribe or unsubscribe? here:
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > ? Google command to search archives:
> > > > ? site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > > > ? searchstring
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing? list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe? here:
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> > > searchstring
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
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> > > searchstring
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:11:50 -0700
> > From: Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>
> > To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
> >         whatever)
> > Message-ID:<A37E0474-043E-4D64-96E0-703CAC4D1147@gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8;  format=flowed;  delsp=yes
> >
> > Word to rafter sass.
> > We gotta keep it moving.
> > Show and prove.
> >
> > You can't stop people; the best put the danks down.
> >
> > I was thinking of how uncomfortable the lack of design in the system
> > itself. But. (but) but the stretch of Pc goes all the way past that
> > idea design. zone 5 Scott Pittman committment witness to reserve, and
> > maybe Permaculture itself should and will indeed always have its  
> > zone 5.
> >
> > Who wants to step up to the garden rigt outside the kitchen (what's
> > the kitchen?); who will hold down zone 1. Because - as for  
> > allergies -
> > it sounds like (to Me) there are people who don't have them. They are
> > being listened to!
> >
> > But maybe it's not an allergy as much as hereditary condition
> > (hereditary allergy?)... We will see, we are all different.
> >
> > Seems like some of em permies don't have it; and zone 1 is what's
> > happening for them.
> >
> > Who can make the idea clear; bring the style eminent? There are those
> > who stick to the ground, working for themselves - what zone is that  
> > in
> > this community?
> >
> > For we are apparently arranged in a space already - discern yourself
> > if you can in this context...
> >
> > Here they are, talking. The relationships exist anyway, and insight  
> > is
> > possible.
> >
> > Cool discussion (glad I checked in guys)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:08 PM, gavinraders@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Beautiful. Thank you Rafter. Great to see this conversation come
> > > around full circle, but even more so, to hear the next generation of
> > > leaders in this movement coming into their own, finding their
> > > eloquent powerful voices, and raising the critical questions that
> > > need to be raised if we are ever going to move permaculture beyond
> > > what it has been. Here's to succession, evolution, and dialectical
> > > engagement within our movement.
> > > Thats all I have time for now. But i take your words with me in the
> > > day-to-day work and struggle. Hope to reconnect soon Rafter!
> > >
> > > Gavin Raders
> > > Co-Founder, Planting Justice
> > > www.plantingjustice.org
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone, powered by CREDO Mobile.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rafter sass<rafter@liberationecology.org>
> > > Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:55:39
> > > To: Northeastern Permaculture (List)<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net
> > >
> > > > ;<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Reply-To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of  
> > > whatever)
> > >
> > >
> > > Many heartfelt thanks  to the folks who have been able to engage
> > > with the challenges of this conversation without descending into
> > > name-calling and other juvenilia.
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Kevin Skvorak has Problems.
> > >
> > > Two of them, for the purposes of this conversation. ;)
> > >
> > > One of them is a Personal Problem - he seems to have contracted the
> > > modern anarchist's allergy to leadership. The symptoms include
> > > putting critique before curiosity.
> > > I hope he works on this. I think he would be even more effective in
> > > raising critical topics and questions if he did.
> > >
> > > The other is NOT a Personal Problem. It's another kind of problem
> > > altogether - a Movement Problem.
> > >
> > > He wants to be a part of a movement that practices an engaged and
> > > ongoing dialogue about its own ethics and strategy - and the
> > > actually-existing Permaculture movement can't really be described
> > > this way. Not quite - not yet.
> > >
> > > What's standing in the way?
> > > Well, a lot of the movement leadership seems to have contracted the
> > > classic leader's malaise of allergy to critique.
> > > Juvenile defensiveness, on the part of our teachers and public
> > > faces, is a problem that is going to do us real harm, as a movement
> > > - if it isn't mitigated.
> > > Or maybe we all just need to get really good at gentle, soothing,
> > > critique, so that we don't insult or frighten them when we have hard
> > > questions to ask. ;)
> > > (And yes - I definitely respond better to that, too!)
> > >
> > > And if that weren't enough, a lot of folks in the movement - along
> > > with most everybody else in the world - don't have a great toolbox
> > > when it comes to thinking about design and strategy at different
> > > scales. What does it even mean to build a movement - or design one?
> > > We aren't well prepared to answer. And we, of all movements, might
> > > want to think hard about the question.
> > >
> > > I don't claim to know the answer, but I DO know that it requires
> > > more and different tools than the ones we use to transform an
> > > individual, or regenerate a landscape,
> > > or organize a project, etc. etc.
> > >
> > > Individual, project, community, movement, world...
> > > The principles I use to guide my behavior and my relationships are
> > > related, but distinct, from the ones that I bring to creating
> > > strategy for the projects I work on.
> > > The criteria I use to design my projects are related, but distinct
> > > from the ones I use to understand and work with my community.
> > > And the tools I use to engage and enliven my community are related,
> > > but distinct from the ones that I use to build and strategize my
> > > movement.
> > >
> > > So for me, arguments that we should go anywhere and teach Pc to
> > > anyone, for anyone, because Pc  is automagically transformative, are
> > > wrongheaded.
> > > A good PDC might actually be able to transform anyone that takes it
> > > - but that doesn't mean that teaching that class is good for the
> > > movement.
> > > As Annie Pollock points out, greenwashing is real, and we are
> > > already dealing with the challenges of the Permaculture label being
> > > applied to all kinds of things we don't
> > > want to be associated with.
> > >
> > > We could go and teach a PDC at a whites-only Afrikaaner "ecovillage"
> > > like Orania, and maybe it would have a profound impact on the people
> > > who took it.
> > > But (1) most of us would be, shall we say, reluctant? for Pc to be
> > > seen as a tool for building a racially pure Volkstaat, and (2) the
> > > Oranians already identify with Permaculture, so I guess an
> > > ecological holistic worldview WON'T necessarily guide someone out of
> > > an oppressive, ethnocentric social vison.
> > >
> > > Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would be bad for the
> > > movement.
> > >
> > > (For more evidence that fascism and ecology can survive in the same
> > > brain, look into Rudolph Steiner's theories on race. Or even more
> > > frightening, search Stormfront.org for entries on Permaculture.
> > > Note: the point here is to debunk oversimplified models of change,
> > > and magical thinking about Permaculture education - not to compare
> > > the National Guard project to white supremacy.)
> > >
> > > And vice versa: what's bad for the individual or project can be good
> > > for the movement. The lynching of civil rights movement workers
> > > James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner, in 1964, was a
> > > horrific tragedy for them, their friends, and families - and a
> > > historic watershed for the civil rights movement.
> > >
> > > The point of these case studies is to say: we may not know how to
> > > design a movement, but
> > > it ain't entirely like designing a PDC.
> > >
> > > We are called, by our commitments, ethics, and desires, to figure it
> > > out. With each other.
> > >
> > > OK, I'm actually supposed to be packing and moving right now, so I'm
> > > going to cut this off.
> > > What are we doing to do with this movement of ours?
> > >
> > >
> > > all love, respect, and hard questions,
> > > rafter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > rafter sass
> > > Liberation Ecology Project
> > > liberationecology.org
> > > 518-567-7407
> > > skype: raughter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Google command to search archives:
> > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Google command to search archives:
> > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:56:35 -0600
> > From: "Scott Pittman"<scott@permaculture.org>
> > To: "'permaculture'"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture
> >         design, differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
> >         begin.
> > Message-ID:<51C14E12C51541E6868D4FD4DA8A34BA@ScottPC>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > What I see most landscape architects doing is infill for  
> > architectural
> > projects with neither group looking for sustainable outcomes.  If  
> > the two
> > disciplines were combined it would make a world of good sense.   
> > Permaculture
> > combines both landscape and building in a whole system approach  
> > that is
> > looking to fulfill the ethical requirements of permaculture; these  
> > ethical
> > considerations do not exist, as far as I know, in either  
> > architecture or
> > landscape architecture.
> >
> > What I am seeing in the architectural field is an attempt to green  
> > up with
> > the Leed Certification program which to me is another cagey way to  
> > separate
> > the client from his pocket book.  Energy efficiency should be  
> > required of
> > all construction as it is mandated by permaculture ethics.
> >
> > I live in a permaculture design and tried to be a demonstration  
> > site for a
> > short time until I realized that all of my time was spent teaching  
> > clueless
> > tourists and the place was going to hell.  While I long for  
> > demonstration
> > sites I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless they figure a way to make  
> > enough
> > money from eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as afford to  
> > hire a
> > full time tour guide.  This is what Bill Mollison wound up doing when
> > Tyalgum was operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
> > scheduling two tours a week.
> >
> > For my esthetic I believe that a functional pc design is incredible
> > beautiful and part of that beauty is that it is messy like nature  
> > rather
> > than ordered and Euclidian like humans.
> >
> > Scott Pittman
> > Director
> > Permaculture Institute
> > www.permaculture.org
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jonathan Storvick [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:55 AM
> > To: permaculture
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture  
> > design,
> > differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other begin.
> >
> > This is a topic that has been on my mind for some time now.  Taking  
> > the PDC
> > course was a life-changing event for me that was a catalyst for  
> > further
> > educational forays.  At this point, I am back in college working  
> > towards my
> > A.A.S. in Horticulture Technology - Landscape Design  
> > Specialization.  It has
> > been an interesting experience comparing and contrasting methods and
> > approaches between permaculture and landscape design, and I agree -  
> > while
> > there is considerable overlap, there is much that can and needs to be
> > reconciled between the two.
> >
> > Perhaps the primary difference between the two is the focus on either
> > function (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole systems design  
> > etc.)
> > with permaculture, and form (aesthetics, ornamentalism,  
> > subordination to
> > architectural forms) with landscape design.  This is not to say that
> > permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that traditional  
> > landscapes never
> > contain functional or edible systems, but the primary focus is  
> > different.
> >
> > My own goal is to run a company that does design/build of edible  
> > landscapes
> > using permaculture methods and philosophy, while amping the  
> > aesthetic value
> > and utilizing the technical skills I'm learning while studying  
> > traditional
> > landscape design, sort of a mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
> > permaculture, edible forest gardening a la Jacke&  Toensmeier, the  
> > Creasy&
> > Kourik school of edible landscaping, and traditional garden design.
> >
> > On a side note - I feel like I hear way too often about  
> > "permaculture demo
> > sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's imaginations, and way  
> > too
> > little about what folks are doing on the ground on their own land  
> > for their
> > own benefit.  I'm sure that having demo sites is wonderful for  
> > introducing
> > people to permaculture concepts, but I figure the best "demo" one  
> > can offer
> > is a functioning system that is in place and directly benefiting  
> > those
> > on-site.  Live by example, right?  I'd rather eke out a decent living
> > designing permaculture landscapes for people who are going to be  
> > eating from
> > the trees I plant, than make a ton of money putting together a big
> > demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see how eco-friendly I am"
> > property that won't be used on a regular basis.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.<
> > venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Just a few initial thoughts to try and start a new discussion  
> > > thread:
> > >
> > > It would be worth using the best of both disciplines, especially  
> > > for those
> > > who offer any kind of landscaping services, where does landscape
> > > architecture and related subfields end and permaculture begin or  
> > > vice
> > versa
> >
> > > or how to combine the best of both to practice permaculture and
> > > eco-landscape architecture to the max. The disciplines are very  
> > > different
> > in
> >
> > > obvious ways, i.e. certified, bondable industrial landscape plans  
> > > and on
> > the
> >
> > > other hand permaculture designs to implement that work as well as  
> > > their
> > > landscape counterpart in every way, especially being aesthetically
> > pleasing
> >
> > > and spiritually rewarding (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and  
> > > Country
> > > Life Movement English cottage gardens).
> > >
> > > For those offering services and are looking for substantial jobs for
> > > clients who can afford them I would imagine there would be as many
> > > customers for permaculture site design and implementation as there  
> > > would
> > be
> >
> > > for landscape design and installation. I hear from many  
> > > permaculturists
> > > getting involved in the consultation and design field
> > > that they have found many wealthy clients who invest in raw land  
> > > and want
> > > to turn it into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there is
> > > "permaculture demonstration site".
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Google command to search archives:
> > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:18:37 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
> > To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
> >         whatever)
> > Message-ID:<182889.64902.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > The movement is already happening, in cooperatives in Venezuala, in  
> > farmer's seed burning of Monsanto GMO in Haiti, in small farmer and  
> > local food movements all over the world, in local currencies,  
> > intentional communities, indigenous uprisings to protect  
> > ecosystems, etc, etc. It is even happening in some of the most  
> > entrenched institutions such as a few public schools.
> >
> > An effective way to keep the word permaculture meaning what it  
> > actually means is to control the definitions of it. So we need to  
> > watch Wiki sites, get our definitions into dictionaries and  
> > encyclopedias, etc.  And to stay alert to media misdefinitions of  
> > it as well and correct them where possible. Having it trademarked  
> > helps too. I've always believed that is a strategy for keeping a  
> > subject from being co-opted by hostile vested interests.  And of  
> > course having manuals and textbooks such as Mollison's and  
> > Holmgren's work. It's starting to move into the university world as  
> > well, with Mollison's textbook as the bedrock of it.
> >
> > I think that the concerns about one small unit of national  
> > guardsmen co-opting permaculture are pretty unreal. There are so  
> > many tools that we have that can counteract that. It's created some  
> > interesting conversation so I'm glad it came up. I believe that the  
> > best way to stay in control of a subject is to be proactive, not to  
> > go off in our corners and refuse to associate with people.  
> > Universities ae going to start teaching this subject sooner or  
> > later. Let's make sure they get it right. It's inevitable that  
> > permaculture will move into the mainstream whether we help it or  
> > not. Let's be proactive and guide and inform that process as much  
> > as possible.
> >
> > It is certainly possible to manipulate and undermine a movement,  
> > but when communities are ready for a certain level of truth, almost  
> > nothing can stop that momentum. The Civil Rights movement is a  
> > great example of that.
> >
> > Eloquent, passionate leadership is an important component of the  
> > success of movements. We would do well to support our vocal and  
> > eloquent spokespeople.
> >
> > Cory
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 8/12/10, Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>   
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > > From: Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of  
> > > whatever)
> > > To: "permaculture"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 3:11 PM
> > > Word to rafter sass.
> > > We gotta keep it moving.
> > > Show and prove.
> > >
> > > You can't stop people; the best put the danks down.
> > >
> > > I was thinking of how uncomfortable the lack of design in
> > > the system itself. But. (but) but the stretch of Pc goes all
> > > the way past that idea design. zone 5 Scott Pittman
> > > committment witness to reserve, and maybe Permaculture
> > > itself should and will indeed always have its zone 5.
> > >
> > > Who wants to step up to the garden rigt outside the kitchen
> > > (what's the kitchen?); who will hold down zone 1. Because -
> > > as for allergies - it sounds like (to Me) there are people
> > > who don't have them. They are being listened to!
> > >
> > > But maybe it's not an allergy as much as hereditary
> > > condition (hereditary allergy?)... We will see, we are all
> > > different.
> > >
> > > Seems like some of em permies don't have it; and zone 1 is
> > > what's happening for them.
> > >
> > > Who can make the idea clear; bring the style eminent? There
> > > are those who stick to the ground, working for themselves -
> > > what zone is that in this community?
> > >
> > > For we are apparently arranged in a space already - discern
> > > yourself if you can in this context...
> > >
> > > Here they are, talking. The relationships exist anyway, and
> > > insight is possible.
> > >
> > > Cool discussion (glad I checked in guys)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:08 PM, gavinraders@gmail.com
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Beautiful. Thank you Rafter. Great to see this
> > > conversation come around full circle, but even more so, to
> > > hear the next generation of leaders in this movement coming
> > > into their own, finding their eloquent powerful voices, and
> > > raising the critical questions that need to be raised if we
> > > are ever going to move permaculture beyond what it has been.
> > > Here's to succession, evolution, and dialectical engagement
> > > within our movement.
> > >
> > > > Thats all I have time for now. But i take your words
> > > with me in the day-to-day work and struggle. Hope to
> > > reconnect soon Rafter!
> > >
> > > > Gavin Raders
> > > > Co-Founder, Planting Justice
> > > > www.plantingjustice.org
> > > > Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone, powered by CREDO
> > > Mobile.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: rafter sass<rafter@liberationecology.org>
> > > > Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:55:39
> > > > To: Northeastern Permaculture (List)<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net 
> > > > >;
> > > <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >
> > > > Reply-To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was:
> > > Ethics of whatever)
> > >
> > > > Many heartfelt thanks? to the folks who have been
> > > able to engage with the challenges of this conversation
> > > without descending into
> > >
> > > > name-calling and other juvenilia.
> > > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kevin Skvorak has Problems.
> > > >
> > > > Two of them, for the purposes of this conversation.
> > > ;)
> > >
> > > > One of them is a Personal Problem - he seems to have
> > > contracted the modern anarchist's allergy to leadership. The
> > > symptoms include putting critique before curiosity.
> > >
> > > > I hope he works on this. I think he would be even more
> > > effective in raising critical topics and questions if he
> > > did.
> > >
> > > > The other is NOT a Personal Problem. It's another kind
> > > of problem altogether - a Movement Problem.
> > >
> > > > He wants to be a part of a movement that practices an
> > > engaged and ongoing dialogue about its own ethics and
> > > strategy - and the actually-existing Permaculture movement
> > > can't really be described this way. Not quite - not yet.
> > >
> > > > What's standing in the way?
> > > > Well, a lot of the movement leadership seems to have
> > > contracted the classic leader's malaise of allergy to
> > > critique.
> > >
> > > > Juvenile defensiveness, on the part of our teachers
> > > and public faces, is a problem that is going to do us real
> > > harm, as a movement - if it isn't mitigated.
> > >
> > > > Or maybe we all just need to get really good at
> > > gentle, soothing, critique, so that we don't insult or
> > > frighten them when we have hard questions to ask. ;)
> > >
> > > > (And yes - I definitely respond better to that, too!)
> > > >
> > > > And if that weren't enough, a lot of folks in the
> > > movement - along with most everybody else in the world -
> > > don't have a great toolbox when it comes to thinking about
> > > design and strategy at different scales. What does it even
> > > mean to build a movement - or design one? We aren't well
> > > prepared to answer. And we, of all movements, might want to
> > > think hard about the question.
> > >
> > > > I don't claim to know the answer, but I DO know that
> > > it requires more and different tools than the ones we use to
> > > transform an individual, or regenerate a landscape,
> > >
> > > > or organize a project, etc. etc.
> > > >
> > > > Individual, project, community, movement, world...
> > > > The principles I use to guide my behavior and my
> > > relationships are related, but distinct, from the ones that
> > > I bring to creating strategy for the projects I work on.
> > >
> > > > The criteria I use to design my projects are related,
> > > but distinct from the ones I use to understand and work with
> > > my community.
> > >
> > > > And the tools I use to engage and enliven my community
> > > are related, but distinct from the ones that I use to build
> > > and strategize my movement.
> > >
> > > > So for me, arguments that we should go anywhere and
> > > teach Pc to anyone, for anyone, because Pc? is
> > > automagically transformative, are wrongheaded.
> > >
> > > > A good PDC might actually be able to transform anyone
> > > that takes it - but that doesn't mean that teaching that
> > > class is good for the movement.
> > >
> > > > As Annie Pollock points out, greenwashing is real, and
> > > we are already dealing with the challenges of the
> > > Permaculture label being applied to all kinds of things we
> > > don't
> > >
> > > > want to be associated with.
> > > >
> > > > We could go and teach a PDC at a whites-only
> > > Afrikaaner "ecovillage" like Orania, and maybe it would have
> > > a profound impact on the people who took it.
> > >
> > > > But (1) most of us would be, shall we say, reluctant?
> > > for Pc to be seen as a tool for building a racially pure
> > > Volkstaat, and (2) the Oranians already identify with
> > > Permaculture, so I guess an ecological holistic worldview
> > > WON'T necessarily guide someone out of an oppressive,
> > > ethnocentric social vison.
> > >
> > > > Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would be
> > > bad for the movement.
> > >
> > > > (For more evidence that fascism and ecology can
> > > survive in the same brain, look into Rudolph Steiner's
> > > theories on race. Or even more frightening, search
> > > Stormfront.org for entries on Permaculture. Note: the point
> > > here is to debunk oversimplified models of change, and
> > > magical thinking about Permaculture education - not to
> > > compare the National Guard project to white supremacy.)
> > >
> > > > And vice versa: what's bad for the individual or
> > > project can be good for the movement. The lynching of civil
> > > rights movement workers James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and
> > > Michael Schwerner, in 1964, was a horrific tragedy for them,
> > > their friends, and families - and a historic watershed for
> > > the civil rights movement.
> > >
> > > > The point of these case studies is to say: we may not
> > > know how to design a movement, but
> > >
> > > > it ain't entirely like designing a PDC.
> > > >
> > > > We are called, by our commitments, ethics, and
> > > desires, to figure it out. With each other.
> > >
> > > > OK, I'm actually supposed to be packing and moving
> > > right now, so I'm going to cut this off.
> > >
> > > > What are we doing to do with this movement of ours?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > all love, respect, and hard questions,
> > > > rafter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > rafter sass
> > > > Liberation Ecology Project
> > > > liberationecology.org
> > > > 518-567-7407
> > > > skype: raughter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > Google command to search archives:
> > > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > > searchstring
> > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > Google command to search archives:
> > > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > > searchstring
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Google command to search archives:
> > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > > searchstring
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:53:51 -0300
> > From: Andrew McSwain<aeromax.way@gmail.com>
> > To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture
> >         design, differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
> >         begin.
> > Message-ID:
> >         <AANLkTinDWpmZhFzueBaMd4vJM325M=CibHaZOP_0p9+y@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > I agree with your aesthetical considerations. I consider the  
> > preference for
> > messy nature-like gardens based on a commonly overlooked  
> > philosophical
> > principle: that our sense of "order" is really just a streamlining or
> > cleaning (and i mean that in the sense of what bleach does) of all  
> > elements
> > and interconnections of a system that we consider as impediments or
> > otherwise useless for that system to accomplish it's human purpose:  
> > serving
> > our personal interests.  Creating order in most cases is really  
> > just a nice
> > way to say that you're stripping the system of it's multi- 
> > functionality and
> > ability to find it's own purposes (innovations). Disorder is really  
> > just
> > sharing the space and resources so that other interests can benefit  
> > too.
> >
> > In that sense our sense of order, even when applied to our lawns,  
> > is the
> > perpetuation of our culture of domination and bigotry. And  
> > ecosystems are
> > naturally just and egalitarian (depending on how that word is  
> > applied).
> >
> > Aside from the obvious ecological implications of permaculture in  
> > saving
> > wilderness, providing food security, and regenerating broken soils,  
> > one of
> > the primary reasons for my continued interest in permaculture is as  
> > much a
> > social one as an ecological. It's ability to bridge the gap between  
> > an
> > ecological sense of order and the eucilidean sort used in most  
> > schools of
> > landscape archeitecture.
> >
> >  Perhaps through permaculture's widespread implementation in public  
> > spaces
> > we will start to change our understanding of Order and how we apply  
> > that to
> > our environments. Order is also creating relationships, not just  
> > destroying
> > the ones that serve our immediate ends, and if we can make our  
> > cities and
> > our yards and lawns more like nature, maybe our mindsets will also  
> > change
> > and make room for other opinions, views, and interests that are at  
> > times
> > even contrary to our own!
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Scott  
> > Pittman<scott@permaculture.org>wrote:
> >
> >
> > > What I see most landscape architects doing is infill for  
> > > architectural
> > > projects with neither group looking for sustainable outcomes.  If  
> > > the two
> > > disciplines were combined it would make a world of good sense.
> > >  Permaculture
> > > combines both landscape and building in a whole system approach  
> > > that is
> > > looking to fulfill the ethical requirements of permaculture; these  
> > > ethical
> > > considerations do not exist, as far as I know, in either  
> > > architecture or
> > > landscape architecture.
> > >
> > > What I am seeing in the architectural field is an attempt to green  
> > > up with
> > > the Leed Certification program which to me is another cagey way to  
> > > separate
> > > the client from his pocket book.  Energy efficiency should be  
> > > required of
> > > all construction as it is mandated by permaculture ethics.
> > >
> > > I live in a permaculture design and tried to be a demonstration  
> > > site for a
> > > short time until I realized that all of my time was spent teaching  
> > > clueless
> > > tourists and the place was going to hell.  While I long for  
> > > demonstration
> > > sites I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless they figure a way to  
> > > make enough
> > > money from eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as afford to  
> > > hire a
> > > full time tour guide.  This is what Bill Mollison wound up doing  
> > > when
> > > Tyalgum was operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
> > > scheduling two tours a week.
> > >
> > > For my esthetic I believe that a functional pc design is incredible
> > > beautiful and part of that beauty is that it is messy like nature  
> > > rather
> > > than ordered and Euclidian like humans.
> > >
> > > Scott Pittman
> > > Director
> > > Permaculture Institute
> > > www.permaculture.org
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jonathan Storvick [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:55 AM
> > > To: permaculture
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and  
> > > permaculture design,
> > > differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other begin.
> > >
> > > This is a topic that has been on my mind for some time now.   
> > > Taking the PDC
> > > course was a life-changing event for me that was a catalyst for  
> > > further
> > > educational forays.  At this point, I am back in college working  
> > > towards my
> > > A.A.S. in Horticulture Technology - Landscape Design  
> > > Specialization.  It
> > > has
> > > been an interesting experience comparing and contrasting methods and
> > > approaches between permaculture and landscape design, and I agree  
> > > - while
> > > there is considerable overlap, there is much that can and needs to  
> > > be
> > > reconciled between the two.
> > >
> > > Perhaps the primary difference between the two is the focus on  
> > > either
> > > function (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole systems  
> > > design etc.)
> > > with permaculture, and form (aesthetics, ornamentalism,  
> > > subordination to
> > > architectural forms) with landscape design.  This is not to say that
> > > permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that traditional  
> > > landscapes never
> > > contain functional or edible systems, but the primary focus is  
> > > different.
> > >
> > > My own goal is to run a company that does design/build of edible  
> > > landscapes
> > > using permaculture methods and philosophy, while amping the  
> > > aesthetic value
> > > and utilizing the technical skills I'm learning while studying  
> > > traditional
> > > landscape design, sort of a mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
> > > permaculture, edible forest gardening a la Jacke&  Toensmeier, the  
> > > Creasy&
> > > Kourik school of edible landscaping, and traditional garden design.
> > >
> > > On a side note - I feel like I hear way too often about  
> > > "permaculture demo
> > > sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's imaginations, and way  
> > > too
> > > little about what folks are doing on the ground on their own land  
> > > for their
> > > own benefit.  I'm sure that having demo sites is wonderful for  
> > > introducing
> > > people to permaculture concepts, but I figure the best "demo" one  
> > > can offer
> > > is a functioning system that is in place and directly benefiting  
> > > those
> > > on-site.  Live by example, right?  I'd rather eke out a decent  
> > > living
> > > designing permaculture landscapes for people who are going to be  
> > > eating
> > > from
> > > the trees I plant, than make a ton of money putting together a big
> > > demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see how eco-friendly I am"
> > > property that won't be used on a regular basis.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.<
> > > venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Just a few initial thoughts to try and start a new discussion  
> > > > thread:
> > > >
> > > > It would be worth using the best of both disciplines, especially  
> > > > for
> > > those
> > >
> > > > who offer any kind of landscaping services, where does landscape
> > > > architecture and related subfields end and permaculture begin or  
> > > > vice
> > > versa
> > >
> > > > or how to combine the best of both to practice permaculture and
> > > > eco-landscape architecture to the max. The disciplines are very  
> > > > different
> > > in
> > >
> > > > obvious ways, i.e. certified, bondable industrial landscape plans  
> > > > and on
> > > the
> > >
> > > > other hand permaculture designs to implement that work as well as  
> > > > their
> > > > landscape counterpart in every way, especially being aesthetically
> > > pleasing
> > >
> > > > and spiritually rewarding (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and  
> > > > Country
> > > > Life Movement English cottage gardens).
> > > >
> > > > For those offering services and are looking for substantial jobs  
> > > > for
> > > > clients who can afford them I would imagine there would be as many
> > > > customers for permaculture site design and implementation as  
> > > > there would
> > > be
> > >
> > > > for landscape design and installation. I hear from many  
> > > > permaculturists
> > > > getting involved in the consultation and design field
> > > > that they have found many wealthy clients who invest in raw land  
> > > > and want
> > > > to turn it into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there is
> > > > "permaculture demonstration site".
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > Google command to search archives:
> > > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Google command to search archives:
> > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 23:58:12 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19
> Message-ID: <4C68B754.2080807@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 8/15/2010 5:01 AM, A Sampson-Kelly wrote:
> > I wonder why my recent post didn't get into the discussion. any help?
>
> It did as this one did. Good idea not to send a complete digest's  
> worth
> of text in a reply like this if it can be avoided, though, if at all
> possible. Tnx. that was a lot of stuff that went out to about 950
> people. If you send email to permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> and you are subscribed the post will always end up here.
> Tnx again.
> LL
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:17:19 +0200
> From: steve read <permaculturefr@free.fr>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement
> Message-ID: <4C68BBCF.1030602@free.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> The 72 hr course is as far as I'm concerned an introduction to
> permaculture and far from bein the basis for an instant career, unless
> as is sometimes the case someone has already loads on board.
>
> An advantage of the teaching teams is that apprentices are exposedd to
> each others areas of expertise and are also under the guidance of an
> experienced permaculteur.
>
> I never felt in any case that the the Aus list of 'accreited  
> designers'
> was very effective, nor the Brit list where designers of 20 years +
> experience seem simply lumped together with neophytes.
>
> I would be supportive of a distributed nodal form of quality control.
> also here we have continued the tradition expounded by Mollison that
> people who have completed a PDC can participate in other PDC's just
> paying for their board and lodging, this also helps quality ccontrol  
> as
> they then give feedback on the courses run by various teachers, we
> intend to publish thses feedbacks on the UPP website.
>
> Steve Read
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:38:59 -0600
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
>         whatever)
> Message-ID: <58DFBB93-6334-48BE-A16F-4AE93C385BBB@patternliteracy.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> rafter wrote:
>
> > Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would be bad for the  
> > movement.
>
> I think this gets to one of the central confusions of this  
> discussion, and why at times we are talking past each other (and  
> BTW, I know someone who taught a PDC for white ideologists, who told  
> me that a lot of important insights came out--for the instructor as  
> well).
>
> I think we fall into two camps: those who view permaculture as a  
> movement, and those who view it as a design approach. Of course,  
> most of us--myself included--hold portions of both views, but I  
> think one will predominate in each person.
>
> If you think of Pc as a movement, then we are activists who are  
> trying to transform people's view of the world, and we need everyone  
> to see it our way. We are right. Permaculture is then a worldview,  
> an ideology of sorts, and people need to do it our way, or the wrong  
> side will win. And our ideology needs to remain pure and  
> uncorrupted.  If the wrong people infiltrate us, permaculture will  
> become tainted, ruined, and it will turn into something we don't  
> want. You are either following it or not; you're with us or against  
> us, and if you are against us, you need to be transformed.You can  
> see that I don't like the idea of Pc being a movement, even though  
> I'm often caught up in its evangelical qualities. And it's not a big  
> step from being a movement to being a cult, which some accuse  
> permaculture of being. Some of the arguments made here are almost  
> cult-like: we have secret knowledge that needs to be kept from the  
> army or they will do harm with it.
>
> Or the other view: If permaculture is a design approach, then at its  
> essence it is a set of tools for Earth- and people-care that is not  
> dependent on belief or ideology. It can't be corrupted because its  
> use either does or doesn't follow the ethics and principles, and it  
> stops being permaculture when those are not being adhered to. Or at  
> least we can say it is a poor or incomplete use of permaculture. A  
> person is either a good designer or a poor one. You use the  
> principles in your work or you don't. You use ecological and social  
> metrics to assess whether you've been successful: As biodiversity  
> up? Are people healthy? This puts the responsibility on the user,  
> and not on permaculture as a movement that may be corrupted by bad  
> people.
>
> Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful here: We don't DO permaculture, we  
> USE permaculture in what we do. Activists in a movement do  
> permaculture. Designers use permaculture in what they do. If the  
> army uses permaculture, it will result in Earth care and people  
> care. If it doesn't have that result, then they aren't using  
> permaculture; they are ideologists applying capitalist/corporate  
> ideology to yet another tool they have made poor use of. If we don't  
> teach them permaculture, there is no chance of them doing the good  
> it can do. It cannot make them worse, in my view. It will either be  
> abandoned by them, or it will make them good designers of healthy  
> systems.
>
> Again, I think "go where you are invited" applies. I have no  
> intention of trying to transform the army with permaculture: that's  
> ideology.  But if they come to me to ask how they can use  
> permaculture to have ecologically and socially successful and sound  
> projects, I'll be there. The student must be ready for the teacher,  
> or there will be no learning.
>
> And incidentally, I've really appreciated what Rafter and manyy  
> others have written here, especially the Rafter/Scott dialog. Thanks  
> for a thought provoking thread.
>
> And, Cory and all: Permaculture is already being taught in over 25  
> universities in the US alone, at last count.
>
> And: I absolutely approve, as Kevin suggested, of making the ethics,  
> principles, and curriculum much clearer and less subject to wild  
> interpretations. Hence the need for organizations that link  
> permaculturists together,
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:55 PM, rafter sass wrote:
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 27
> ********************************************