permaculture

[A Sampson-Kelly <april@permaculturevisions.com>]

I wonder why my recent post didn't get into the discussion. any help?

April S-Kelly

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On 13/08/2010 11:15 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
>        (Cory Brennan)
>     2. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
>        (Daniel Mazen Kablaoui)
>     3. Re: Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
>        differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
>        begin. (Scott Pittman)
>     4. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever) (Cory Brennan)
>     5. Re: Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
>        differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
>        begin. (Andrew McSwain)
>     6. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
>        (Andrew McSwain)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US
>         military)
> Message-ID:<774547.30648.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Linda,
>
> I believe that our strength lies in diversity - we work in numerous countries with 
> numerous types of people who come from a wide variety of backgrounds and paradigms. 
> Teaching one class to a group of National Guardsmen hardly puts us "in bed" 
> with an occupying army. It's not unlike planting one nitrogen fixing plant in a 
> monocrop field. The effects won't be felt by the field at all, but who knows where the 
> seeds will spread? This discussion might be more relevant if someone had taken on a 
> contract to train the entire Army or Marine Corp, etc, in permaculture.
>
> Best, Cory
>
> --- On Thu, 8/12/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com<LBUZZELL@aol.com>  wrote:
>
>    
> > From: LBUZZELL@aol.com<LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US military)
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 2:14 PM
> > Hi Cory,
> >
> > Thanks for the clarification.? It's true that some
> > psychiatrists were?
> > involved as well. Dr. Ewen Cameron is a frightening example
> > of a healing?
> > professional gone wrong.
> >
> > While I agree that the problems with psychologists and
> > psychiatrists aren't
> >   an exact parallel, I believe it's wise to remember that in
> > the pioneering
> > era of? Freud and Jung, when psychiatry and therapy
> > were as young as
> > permaculture is? now, the new field of mental health
> > was reasonably idealistic,
> > mostly talk? therapy and some notable free care social
> > initiatives.? We've had?
> > over 100 years to screw up the profession.? I'm sure
> > the early pioneers?
> > would be spinning in their graves at the field's current
> > drug pushing,?
> > mind-bending marketing research and military
> > collusions.? ? Looking at this
> > history, I still feel it a cautionary tale for any
> > new? profession thinking of
> > embedding itself in an occupying army.
> >
> > And yes of course Scott isn't doing anything like what some
> > of today's?
> > mental health military collaborators (what else can you
> > call them?) are doing,?
> > but I believe that permaculture should be cautious about
> > taking even one
> > tiny? step along that road...
> >
> > Linda
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/12/2010 1:26:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight
> > Time,?
> > cory8570@yahoo.com
> > writes:
> >
> > Linda,?
> >
> > The situation with psychiatrists/psychologists is quite
> > different than?
> > permaculture. Mainstream psychiatrists' main activity is
> > using drugs,?
> > electroshock, involuntary commitment and other invasive
> > methods to treat? mental
> > symptoms - this is not a sustainable practice nor is it
> > holistic. I am? aware
> > of the divisive camps within psychology, where some are
> > more focused on?
> > holistic, regenerative approaches and some are just
> > referral services for drug?
> > companies via MDs or psychiatrists.
> >
> > "Journey Into Madness" and other? documentation
> > illustrates how
> > psychiatrists were in fact behind the CIA mind?
> > control experiments on unsuspecting
> > Canadian and US citizens (MKULTRA), drug? and lobotomy
> > experimentation on
> > prisoners and minorities, eugenics policies in? the US
> > and Germany, etc. Some of
> > the most respected psychiatrists at? Universities were
> > involved in
> > military/intelligence operations that led to use? of
> > torture techniques throughout
> > the world in various military organizations? (Middle
> > East, El Salvador, etc).?
> > Psychiatrists do take the Hippocratic? Oath but
> > obviously, there are a
> > number of them that have broken that oath.? They were
> > not "co-opted" or
> > corrupted, it was their idea in the first place.? They
> > (like Dr Ewen Camaron -
> > "psychic driving") were already doing these?
> > experiments on their patients before
> > partnering with the military.
> >
> > I? can't see Scott (who was one of my instructors for
> > my PDC) or any of the
> > rest? of us going down any such road. It is not the
> > same thing, at all.?
> >
> > Cory
> >
> > --- On Thu, 8/12/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com?
> > <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >      
> > > From: LBUZZELL@aol.com?
> > >        
> > <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
> >      
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] on an ethics of? Mr
> > >        
> > Pittman (and the US
> > military)
> >      
> > > To:? permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 1:05? PM
> > > you might want to ask permaculture
> > > activist Joshua Fattal? who has? been
> > >        
> > > > arrested by the Iranian government and
> > > >          
> > accused? of
> >      
> > > espionage whether? it
> > >        
> > > > would help him or others? like him that
> > > >          
> > "permaculture"
> >      
> > > is now
> > >        
> > > > ? celebrated as a? US army reserve
> > > >          
> > "hearts and
> >      
> > > minds"
> > >        
> > > > ???counterinsurgency/sustainment
> > > >          
> > technique
> >      
> > > ?
> > > I have to admit? that this point is hard to
> > >        
> > disagree
> >      
> > > ? with.???Permaculture
> > > was perhaps better off when it? was seen as a
> > > politically? neutral Australian
> > > land and? people care system being used in many
> > > countries? with widely?
> > > different governmental systems, from Cuba to the US.
> > > ???
> > > Although I'm very sympathetic to Scott's and others'
> > > ? eagerness to spread?
> > > permaculture far and wide, I must conclude? that
> > >        
> > it was a
> >      
> > > mistake for world?
> > > permaculture to get? involved with the
> > >        
> > first-world occupying
> >      
> > > army in a third?
> > > ? world country, however eager the recruits were
> > >        
> > to learn
> >      
> > > about???permaculture.
> > > ?
> > > ?
> > > Corporations have but one? motive: profit. Armies
> > >        
> > likewise
> >      
> > > have but one?
> > > motive: to? use force or other more subtle
> > >        
> > enforcement
> >      
> > > methods to vanquish???
> > > enemies.? Their aims and even techniques may
> > >        
> > appear to
> >      
> > > ? be beneficient,? but we
> > > must not be naive.? And even if we? view
> > >        
> > some military
> >      
> > > as "good? guys," how
> > > does? permaculture make the distinction on a
> > >        
> > global level
> >      
> > > without???politicizing
> > > itself?
> > > ?
> > > Permaculture is an? exciting new profession and
> > >        
> > deserves to
> >      
> > > flourish?
> > > ? independent of destructive entanglements.?
> > >        
> > I have seen
> >      
> > > ? similar? problems happen in
> > > my own field of mental health:? psychologists who
> > >        
> > got
> >      
> > > involved with the
> > > military? developed torture techniques for the
> > >        
> > CIA and
> >      
> > > were,? alas,? actively
> > > involved at Abu Ghraib.? I realize we
> > >        
> > haven't? done
> >      
> > > anything? like this yet --
> > > but caution is needed.? The "psychology in the
> > > military"? issue has split the
> > > ? American Psychological Association into warring
> > >        
> > factions
> >      
> > > for???years, some
> > > supporting those involved with the military and
> > > ? others? against.?
> > > ?
> > > In just this short? dialogue I see the beginnings
> > >        
> > of similar
> >      
> > > problems in?
> > > ? permaculture unless some clear ethical
> > >        
> > guidelines are laid
> >      
> > > down to? prevent?
> > > permaculture from being used by the military and?
> > >        
> > various
> >      
> > > governments for their
> > > ? own purposes.? Psychiatrists, by the way,
> > >        
> > avoided the
> >      
> > > problems faced by the?
> > > ? psychologists because they take a Hippocratic
> > >        
> > oath that
> >      
> > > ? prevents them from
> > > doing? some of the unfortunate things a?
> > >        
> > few
> >      
> > > psychologists have done.
> > > ?
> > > Linda? Buzzell-Saltzman
> > >
> > >
> > > ? _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing? list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe? here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > ? Google command to search archives:
> > > ? site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > > ? searchstring
> > >
> > >        
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing? list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe? here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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> > searchstring
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> > searchstring
> >
> >      
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:11:50 -0700
> From: Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
>         whatever)
> Message-ID:<A37E0474-043E-4D64-96E0-703CAC4D1147@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8;  format=flowed;  delsp=yes
>
> Word to rafter sass.
> We gotta keep it moving.
> Show and prove.
>
> You can't stop people; the best put the danks down.
>
> I was thinking of how uncomfortable the lack of design in the system
> itself. But. (but) but the stretch of Pc goes all the way past that
> idea design. zone 5 Scott Pittman committment witness to reserve, and
> maybe Permaculture itself should and will indeed always have its zone 5.
>
> Who wants to step up to the garden rigt outside the kitchen (what's
> the kitchen?); who will hold down zone 1. Because - as for allergies -
> it sounds like (to Me) there are people who don't have them. They are
> being listened to!
>
> But maybe it's not an allergy as much as hereditary condition
> (hereditary allergy?)... We will see, we are all different.
>
> Seems like some of em permies don't have it; and zone 1 is what's
> happening for them.
>
> Who can make the idea clear; bring the style eminent? There are those
> who stick to the ground, working for themselves - what zone is that in
> this community?
>
> For we are apparently arranged in a space already - discern yourself
> if you can in this context...
>
> Here they are, talking. The relationships exist anyway, and insight is
> possible.
>
> Cool discussion (glad I checked in guys)
>
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:08 PM, gavinraders@gmail.com wrote:
>
>    
> > Beautiful. Thank you Rafter. Great to see this conversation come
> > around full circle, but even more so, to hear the next generation of
> > leaders in this movement coming into their own, finding their
> > eloquent powerful voices, and raising the critical questions that
> > need to be raised if we are ever going to move permaculture beyond
> > what it has been. Here's to succession, evolution, and dialectical
> > engagement within our movement.
> > Thats all I have time for now. But i take your words with me in the
> > day-to-day work and struggle. Hope to reconnect soon Rafter!
> >
> > Gavin Raders
> > Co-Founder, Planting Justice
> > www.plantingjustice.org
> > Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone, powered by CREDO Mobile.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rafter sass<rafter@liberationecology.org>
> > Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:55:39
> > To: Northeastern Permaculture (List)<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net
> >      
> > > ;<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >        
> > Reply-To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
> >
> >
> > Many heartfelt thanks  to the folks who have been able to engage
> > with the challenges of this conversation without descending into
> > name-calling and other juvenilia.
> >
> > ...
> >
> >
> > Kevin Skvorak has Problems.
> >
> > Two of them, for the purposes of this conversation. ;)
> >
> > One of them is a Personal Problem - he seems to have contracted the
> > modern anarchist's allergy to leadership. The symptoms include
> > putting critique before curiosity.
> > I hope he works on this. I think he would be even more effective in
> > raising critical topics and questions if he did.
> >
> > The other is NOT a Personal Problem. It's another kind of problem
> > altogether - a Movement Problem.
> >
> > He wants to be a part of a movement that practices an engaged and
> > ongoing dialogue about its own ethics and strategy - and the
> > actually-existing Permaculture movement can't really be described
> > this way. Not quite - not yet.
> >
> > What's standing in the way?
> > Well, a lot of the movement leadership seems to have contracted the
> > classic leader's malaise of allergy to critique.
> > Juvenile defensiveness, on the part of our teachers and public
> > faces, is a problem that is going to do us real harm, as a movement
> > - if it isn't mitigated.
> > Or maybe we all just need to get really good at gentle, soothing,
> > critique, so that we don't insult or frighten them when we have hard
> > questions to ask. ;)
> > (And yes - I definitely respond better to that, too!)
> >
> > And if that weren't enough, a lot of folks in the movement - along
> > with most everybody else in the world - don't have a great toolbox
> > when it comes to thinking about design and strategy at different
> > scales. What does it even mean to build a movement - or design one?
> > We aren't well prepared to answer. And we, of all movements, might
> > want to think hard about the question.
> >
> > I don't claim to know the answer, but I DO know that it requires
> > more and different tools than the ones we use to transform an
> > individual, or regenerate a landscape,
> > or organize a project, etc. etc.
> >
> > Individual, project, community, movement, world...
> > The principles I use to guide my behavior and my relationships are
> > related, but distinct, from the ones that I bring to creating
> > strategy for the projects I work on.
> > The criteria I use to design my projects are related, but distinct
> > from the ones I use to understand and work with my community.
> > And the tools I use to engage and enliven my community are related,
> > but distinct from the ones that I use to build and strategize my
> > movement.
> >
> > So for me, arguments that we should go anywhere and teach Pc to
> > anyone, for anyone, because Pc  is automagically transformative, are
> > wrongheaded.
> > A good PDC might actually be able to transform anyone that takes it
> > - but that doesn't mean that teaching that class is good for the
> > movement.
> > As Annie Pollock points out, greenwashing is real, and we are
> > already dealing with the challenges of the Permaculture label being
> > applied to all kinds of things we don't
> > want to be associated with.
> >
> > We could go and teach a PDC at a whites-only Afrikaaner "ecovillage"
> > like Orania, and maybe it would have a profound impact on the people
> > who took it.
> > But (1) most of us would be, shall we say, reluctant? for Pc to be
> > seen as a tool for building a racially pure Volkstaat, and (2) the
> > Oranians already identify with Permaculture, so I guess an
> > ecological holistic worldview WON'T necessarily guide someone out of
> > an oppressive, ethnocentric social vison.
> >
> > Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would be bad for the
> > movement.
> >
> > (For more evidence that fascism and ecology can survive in the same
> > brain, look into Rudolph Steiner's theories on race. Or even more
> > frightening, search Stormfront.org for entries on Permaculture.
> > Note: the point here is to debunk oversimplified models of change,
> > and magical thinking about Permaculture education - not to compare
> > the National Guard project to white supremacy.)
> >
> > And vice versa: what's bad for the individual or project can be good
> > for the movement. The lynching of civil rights movement workers
> > James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner, in 1964, was a
> > horrific tragedy for them, their friends, and families - and a
> > historic watershed for the civil rights movement.
> >
> > The point of these case studies is to say: we may not know how to
> > design a movement, but
> > it ain't entirely like designing a PDC.
> >
> > We are called, by our commitments, ethics, and desires, to figure it
> > out. With each other.
> >
> > OK, I'm actually supposed to be packing and moving right now, so I'm
> > going to cut this off.
> > What are we doing to do with this movement of ours?
> >
> >
> > all love, respect, and hard questions,
> > rafter
> >
> >
> >
> > rafter sass
> > Liberation Ecology Project
> > liberationecology.org
> > 518-567-7407
> > skype: raughter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Google command to search archives:
> > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Google command to search archives:
> > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >      
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:56:35 -0600
> From: "Scott Pittman"<scott@permaculture.org>
> To: "'permaculture'"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture
>         design, differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
>         begin.
> Message-ID:<51C14E12C51541E6868D4FD4DA8A34BA@ScottPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> What I see most landscape architects doing is infill for architectural
> projects with neither group looking for sustainable outcomes.  If the two
> disciplines were combined it would make a world of good sense.  Permaculture
> combines both landscape and building in a whole system approach that is
> looking to fulfill the ethical requirements of permaculture; these ethical
> considerations do not exist, as far as I know, in either architecture or
> landscape architecture.
>
> What I am seeing in the architectural field is an attempt to green up with
> the Leed Certification program which to me is another cagey way to separate
> the client from his pocket book.  Energy efficiency should be required of
> all construction as it is mandated by permaculture ethics.
>
> I live in a permaculture design and tried to be a demonstration site for a
> short time until I realized that all of my time was spent teaching clueless
> tourists and the place was going to hell.  While I long for demonstration
> sites I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless they figure a way to make enough
> money from eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as afford to hire a
> full time tour guide.  This is what Bill Mollison wound up doing when
> Tyalgum was operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
> scheduling two tours a week.
>
> For my esthetic I believe that a functional pc design is incredible
> beautiful and part of that beauty is that it is messy like nature rather
> than ordered and Euclidian like humans.
>
> Scott Pittman
> Director
> Permaculture Institute
> www.permaculture.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Storvick [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
> differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other begin.
>
> This is a topic that has been on my mind for some time now.  Taking the PDC
> course was a life-changing event for me that was a catalyst for further
> educational forays.  At this point, I am back in college working towards my
> A.A.S. in Horticulture Technology - Landscape Design Specialization.  It has
> been an interesting experience comparing and contrasting methods and
> approaches between permaculture and landscape design, and I agree - while
> there is considerable overlap, there is much that can and needs to be
> reconciled between the two.
>
> Perhaps the primary difference between the two is the focus on either
> function (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole systems design etc.)
> with permaculture, and form (aesthetics, ornamentalism, subordination to
> architectural forms) with landscape design.  This is not to say that
> permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that traditional landscapes never
> contain functional or edible systems, but the primary focus is different.
>
> My own goal is to run a company that does design/build of edible landscapes
> using permaculture methods and philosophy, while amping the aesthetic value
> and utilizing the technical skills I'm learning while studying traditional
> landscape design, sort of a mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
> permaculture, edible forest gardening a la Jacke&  Toensmeier, the Creasy&
> Kourik school of edible landscaping, and traditional garden design.
>
> On a side note - I feel like I hear way too often about "permaculture demo
> sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's imaginations, and way too
> little about what folks are doing on the ground on their own land for their
> own benefit.  I'm sure that having demo sites is wonderful for introducing
> people to permaculture concepts, but I figure the best "demo" one can offer
> is a functioning system that is in place and directly benefiting those
> on-site.  Live by example, right?  I'd rather eke out a decent living
> designing permaculture landscapes for people who are going to be eating from
> the trees I plant, than make a ton of money putting together a big
> demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see how eco-friendly I am"
> property that won't be used on a regular basis.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.<
> venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>  wrote:
>
>    
> > Just a few initial thoughts to try and start a new discussion thread:
> >
> > It would be worth using the best of both disciplines, especially for those
> > who offer any kind of landscaping services, where does landscape
> > architecture and related subfields end and permaculture begin or vice
> >      
> versa
>    
> > or how to combine the best of both to practice permaculture and
> > eco-landscape architecture to the max. The disciplines are very different
> >      
> in
>    
> > obvious ways, i.e. certified, bondable industrial landscape plans and on
> >      
> the
>    
> > other hand permaculture designs to implement that work as well as their
> > landscape counterpart in every way, especially being aesthetically
> >      
> pleasing
>    
> > and spiritually rewarding (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and Country
> > Life Movement English cottage gardens).
> >
> > For those offering services and are looking for substantial jobs for
> > clients who can afford them I would imagine there would be as many
> > customers for permaculture site design and implementation as there would
> >      
> be
>    
> > for landscape design and installation. I hear from many permaculturists
> > getting involved in the consultation and design field
> > that they have found many wealthy clients who invest in raw land and want
> > to turn it into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there is
> > "permaculture demonstration site".
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Google command to search archives:
> > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >
> >      
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:18:37 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
>         whatever)
> Message-ID:<182889.64902.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> The movement is already happening, in cooperatives in Venezuala, in farmer's 
> seed burning of Monsanto GMO in Haiti, in small farmer and local food 
> movements all over the world, in local currencies, intentional communities, 
> indigenous uprisings to protect ecosystems, etc, etc. It is even happening in 
> some of the most entrenched institutions such as a few public schools.
>
> An effective way to keep the word permaculture meaning what it actually means 
> is to control the definitions of it. So we need to watch Wiki sites, get our 
> definitions into dictionaries and encyclopedias, etc.  And to stay alert to 
> media misdefinitions of it as well and correct them where possible. Having it 
> trademarked helps too. I've always believed that is a strategy for keeping a 
> subject from being co-opted by hostile vested interests.  And of course 
> having manuals and textbooks such as Mollison's and Holmgren's work. It's 
> starting to move into the university world as well, with Mollison's textbook 
> as the bedrock of it.
>
> I think that the concerns about one small unit of national guardsmen 
> co-opting permaculture are pretty unreal. There are so many tools that we 
> have that can counteract that. It's created some interesting conversation so 
> I'm glad it came up. I believe that the best way to stay in control of a 
> subject is to be proactive, not to go off in our corners and refuse to 
> associate with people. Universities ae going to start teaching this subject 
> sooner or later. Let's make sure they get it right. It's inevitable that 
> permaculture will move into the mainstream whether we help it or not. Let's 
> be proactive and guide and inform that process as much as possible.
>
> It is certainly possible to manipulate and undermine a movement, but when 
> communities are ready for a certain level of truth, almost nothing can stop 
> that momentum. The Civil Rights movement is a great example of that.
>
> Eloquent, passionate leadership is an important component of the success of 
> movements. We would do well to support our vocal and eloquent spokespeople.
>
> Cory
>
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 8/12/10, Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>    
> > From: Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
> > To: "permaculture"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 3:11 PM
> > Word to rafter sass.
> > We gotta keep it moving.
> > Show and prove.
> >
> > You can't stop people; the best put the danks down.
> >
> > I was thinking of how uncomfortable the lack of design in
> > the system itself. But. (but) but the stretch of Pc goes all
> > the way past that idea design. zone 5 Scott Pittman
> > committment witness to reserve, and maybe Permaculture
> > itself should and will indeed always have its zone 5.
> >
> > Who wants to step up to the garden rigt outside the kitchen
> > (what's the kitchen?); who will hold down zone 1. Because -
> > as for allergies - it sounds like (to Me) there are people
> > who don't have them. They are being listened to!
> >
> > But maybe it's not an allergy as much as hereditary
> > condition (hereditary allergy?)... We will see, we are all
> > different.
> >
> > Seems like some of em permies don't have it; and zone 1 is
> > what's happening for them.
> >
> > Who can make the idea clear; bring the style eminent? There
> > are those who stick to the ground, working for themselves -
> > what zone is that in this community?
> >
> > For we are apparently arranged in a space already - discern
> > yourself if you can in this context...
> >
> > Here they are, talking. The relationships exist anyway, and
> > insight is possible.
> >
> > Cool discussion (glad I checked in guys)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:08 PM, gavinraders@gmail.com
> > wrote:
> >
> >      
> > > Beautiful. Thank you Rafter. Great to see this
> > >        
> > conversation come around full circle, but even more so, to
> > hear the next generation of leaders in this movement coming
> > into their own, finding their eloquent powerful voices, and
> > raising the critical questions that need to be raised if we
> > are ever going to move permaculture beyond what it has been.
> > Here's to succession, evolution, and dialectical engagement
> > within our movement.
> >      
> > > Thats all I have time for now. But i take your words
> > >        
> > with me in the day-to-day work and struggle. Hope to
> > reconnect soon Rafter!
> >      
> > > Gavin Raders
> > > Co-Founder, Planting Justice
> > > www.plantingjustice.org
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone, powered by CREDO
> > >        
> > Mobile.
> >      
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rafter sass<rafter@liberationecology.org>
> > > Sender: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:55:39
> > > To: Northeastern Permaculture 
> > > (List)<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net>;
> > >        
> > <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> >      
> > > Reply-To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was:
> > >        
> > Ethics of whatever)
> >      
> > > Many heartfelt thanks? to the folks who have been
> > >        
> > able to engage with the challenges of this conversation
> > without descending into
> >      
> > > name-calling and other juvenilia.
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Kevin Skvorak has Problems.
> > >
> > > Two of them, for the purposes of this conversation.
> > >        
> > ;)
> >      
> > > One of them is a Personal Problem - he seems to have
> > >        
> > contracted the modern anarchist's allergy to leadership. The
> > symptoms include putting critique before curiosity.
> >      
> > > I hope he works on this. I think he would be even more
> > >        
> > effective in raising critical topics and questions if he
> > did.
> >      
> > > The other is NOT a Personal Problem. It's another kind
> > >        
> > of problem altogether - a Movement Problem.
> >      
> > > He wants to be a part of a movement that practices an
> > >        
> > engaged and ongoing dialogue about its own ethics and
> > strategy - and the actually-existing Permaculture movement
> > can't really be described this way. Not quite - not yet.
> >      
> > > What's standing in the way?
> > > Well, a lot of the movement leadership seems to have
> > >        
> > contracted the classic leader's malaise of allergy to
> > critique.
> >      
> > > Juvenile defensiveness, on the part of our teachers
> > >        
> > and public faces, is a problem that is going to do us real
> > harm, as a movement - if it isn't mitigated.
> >      
> > > Or maybe we all just need to get really good at
> > >        
> > gentle, soothing, critique, so that we don't insult or
> > frighten them when we have hard questions to ask. ;)
> >      
> > > (And yes - I definitely respond better to that, too!)
> > >
> > > And if that weren't enough, a lot of folks in the
> > >        
> > movement - along with most everybody else in the world -
> > don't have a great toolbox when it comes to thinking about
> > design and strategy at different scales. What does it even
> > mean to build a movement - or design one? We aren't well
> > prepared to answer. And we, of all movements, might want to
> > think hard about the question.
> >      
> > > I don't claim to know the answer, but I DO know that
> > >        
> > it requires more and different tools than the ones we use to
> > transform an individual, or regenerate a landscape,
> >      
> > > or organize a project, etc. etc.
> > >
> > > Individual, project, community, movement, world...
> > > The principles I use to guide my behavior and my
> > >        
> > relationships are related, but distinct, from the ones that
> > I bring to creating strategy for the projects I work on.
> >      
> > > The criteria I use to design my projects are related,
> > >        
> > but distinct from the ones I use to understand and work with
> > my community.
> >      
> > > And the tools I use to engage and enliven my community
> > >        
> > are related, but distinct from the ones that I use to build
> > and strategize my movement.
> >      
> > > So for me, arguments that we should go anywhere and
> > >        
> > teach Pc to anyone, for anyone, because Pc? is
> > automagically transformative, are wrongheaded.
> >      
> > > A good PDC might actually be able to transform anyone
> > >        
> > that takes it - but that doesn't mean that teaching that
> > class is good for the movement.
> >      
> > > As Annie Pollock points out, greenwashing is real, and
> > >        
> > we are already dealing with the challenges of the
> > Permaculture label being applied to all kinds of things we
> > don't
> >      
> > > want to be associated with.
> > >
> > > We could go and teach a PDC at a whites-only
> > >        
> > Afrikaaner "ecovillage" like Orania, and maybe it would have
> > a profound impact on the people who took it.
> >      
> > > But (1) most of us would be, shall we say, reluctant?
> > >        
> > for Pc to be seen as a tool for building a racially pure
> > Volkstaat, and (2) the Oranians already identify with
> > Permaculture, so I guess an ecological holistic worldview
> > WON'T necessarily guide someone out of an oppressive,
> > ethnocentric social vison.
> >      
> > > Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would be
> > >        
> > bad for the movement.
> >      
> > > (For more evidence that fascism and ecology can
> > >        
> > survive in the same brain, look into Rudolph Steiner's
> > theories on race. Or even more frightening, search
> > Stormfront.org for entries on Permaculture. Note: the point
> > here is to debunk oversimplified models of change, and
> > magical thinking about Permaculture education - not to
> > compare the National Guard project to white supremacy.)
> >      
> > > And vice versa: what's bad for the individual or
> > >        
> > project can be good for the movement. The lynching of civil
> > rights movement workers James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and
> > Michael Schwerner, in 1964, was a horrific tragedy for them,
> > their friends, and families - and a historic watershed for
> > the civil rights movement.
> >      
> > > The point of these case studies is to say: we may not
> > >        
> > know how to design a movement, but
> >      
> > > it ain't entirely like designing a PDC.
> > >
> > > We are called, by our commitments, ethics, and
> > >        
> > desires, to figure it out. With each other.
> >      
> > > OK, I'm actually supposed to be packing and moving
> > >        
> > right now, so I'm going to cut this off.
> >      
> > > What are we doing to do with this movement of ours?
> > >
> > >
> > > all love, respect, and hard questions,
> > > rafter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > rafter sass
> > > Liberation Ecology Project
> > > liberationecology.org
> > > 518-567-7407
> > > skype: raughter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Google command to search archives:
> > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > >        
> > searchstring
> >      
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Google command to search archives:
> > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > >        
> > searchstring
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Google command to search archives:
> > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
> > searchstring
> >
> >      
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:53:51 -0300
> From: Andrew McSwain<aeromax.way@gmail.com>
> To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture
>         design, differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other
>         begin.
> Message-ID:
>         <AANLkTinDWpmZhFzueBaMd4vJM325M=CibHaZOP_0p9+y@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I agree with your aesthetical considerations. I consider the preference for
> messy nature-like gardens based on a commonly overlooked philosophical
> principle: that our sense of "order" is really just a streamlining or
> cleaning (and i mean that in the sense of what bleach does) of all elements
> and interconnections of a system that we consider as impediments or
> otherwise useless for that system to accomplish it's human purpose: serving
> our personal interests.  Creating order in most cases is really just a nice
> way to say that you're stripping the system of it's multi-functionality and
> ability to find it's own purposes (innovations). Disorder is really just
> sharing the space and resources so that other interests can benefit too.
>
> In that sense our sense of order, even when applied to our lawns, is the
> perpetuation of our culture of domination and bigotry. And ecosystems are
> naturally just and egalitarian (depending on how that word is applied).
>
> Aside from the obvious ecological implications of permaculture in saving
> wilderness, providing food security, and regenerating broken soils, one of
> the primary reasons for my continued interest in permaculture is as much a
> social one as an ecological. It's ability to bridge the gap between an
> ecological sense of order and the eucilidean sort used in most schools of
> landscape archeitecture.
>
>   Perhaps through permaculture's widespread implementation in public spaces
> we will start to change our understanding of Order and how we apply that to
> our environments. Order is also creating relationships, not just destroying
> the ones that serve our immediate ends, and if we can make our cities and
> our yards and lawns more like nature, maybe our mindsets will also change
> and make room for other opinions, views, and interests that are at times
> even contrary to our own!
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Scott Pittman<scott@permaculture.org>wrote:
>
>    
> > What I see most landscape architects doing is infill for architectural
> > projects with neither group looking for sustainable outcomes.  If the two
> > disciplines were combined it would make a world of good sense.
> >   Permaculture
> > combines both landscape and building in a whole system approach that is
> > looking to fulfill the ethical requirements of permaculture; these ethical
> > considerations do not exist, as far as I know, in either architecture or
> > landscape architecture.
> >
> > What I am seeing in the architectural field is an attempt to green up with
> > the Leed Certification program which to me is another cagey way to separate
> > the client from his pocket book.  Energy efficiency should be required of
> > all construction as it is mandated by permaculture ethics.
> >
> > I live in a permaculture design and tried to be a demonstration site for a
> > short time until I realized that all of my time was spent teaching clueless
> > tourists and the place was going to hell.  While I long for demonstration
> > sites I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless they figure a way to make enough
> > money from eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as afford to hire a
> > full time tour guide.  This is what Bill Mollison wound up doing when
> > Tyalgum was operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
> > scheduling two tours a week.
> >
> > For my esthetic I believe that a functional pc design is incredible
> > beautiful and part of that beauty is that it is messy like nature rather
> > than ordered and Euclidian like humans.
> >
> > Scott Pittman
> > Director
> > Permaculture Institute
> > www.permaculture.org
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jonathan Storvick [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:55 AM
> > To: permaculture
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture design,
> > differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other begin.
> >
> > This is a topic that has been on my mind for some time now.  Taking the PDC
> > course was a life-changing event for me that was a catalyst for further
> > educational forays.  At this point, I am back in college working towards my
> > A.A.S. in Horticulture Technology - Landscape Design Specialization.  It
> > has
> > been an interesting experience comparing and contrasting methods and
> > approaches between permaculture and landscape design, and I agree - while
> > there is considerable overlap, there is much that can and needs to be
> > reconciled between the two.
> >
> > Perhaps the primary difference between the two is the focus on either
> > function (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole systems design etc.)
> > with permaculture, and form (aesthetics, ornamentalism, subordination to
> > architectural forms) with landscape design.  This is not to say that
> > permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that traditional landscapes never
> > contain functional or edible systems, but the primary focus is different.
> >
> > My own goal is to run a company that does design/build of edible landscapes
> > using permaculture methods and philosophy, while amping the aesthetic value
> > and utilizing the technical skills I'm learning while studying traditional
> > landscape design, sort of a mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
> > permaculture, edible forest gardening a la Jacke&  Toensmeier, the Creasy&
> > Kourik school of edible landscaping, and traditional garden design.
> >
> > On a side note - I feel like I hear way too often about "permaculture demo
> > sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's imaginations, and way too
> > little about what folks are doing on the ground on their own land for their
> > own benefit.  I'm sure that having demo sites is wonderful for introducing
> > people to permaculture concepts, but I figure the best "demo" one can offer
> > is a functioning system that is in place and directly benefiting those
> > on-site.  Live by example, right?  I'd rather eke out a decent living
> > designing permaculture landscapes for people who are going to be eating
> > from
> > the trees I plant, than make a ton of money putting together a big
> > demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see how eco-friendly I am"
> > property that won't be used on a regular basis.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.<
> > venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>  wrote:
> >
> >      
> > > Just a few initial thoughts to try and start a new discussion thread:
> > >
> > > It would be worth using the best of both disciplines, especially for
> > >        
> > those
> >      
> > > who offer any kind of landscaping services, where does landscape
> > > architecture and related subfields end and permaculture begin or vice
> > >        
> > versa
> >      
> > > or how to combine the best of both to practice permaculture and
> > > eco-landscape architecture to the max. The disciplines are very different
> > >        
> > in
> >      
> > > obvious ways, i.e. certified, bondable industrial landscape plans and on
> > >        
> > the
> >      
> > > other hand permaculture designs to implement that work as well as their
> > > landscape counterpart in every way, especially being aesthetically
> > >        
> > pleasing
> >      
> > > and spiritually rewarding (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and Country
> > > Life Movement English cottage gardens).
> > >
> > > For those offering services and are looking for substantial jobs for
> > > clients who can afford them I would imagine there would be as many
> > > customers for permaculture site design and implementation as there would
> > >        
> > be
> >      
> > > for landscape design and installation. I hear from many permaculturists
> > > getting involved in the consultation and design field
> > > that they have found many wealthy clients who invest in raw land and want
> > > to turn it into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there is
> > > "permaculture demonstration site".
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > Google command to search archives:
> > > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> > >
> > >        
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > Google command to search archives:
> > site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture searchstring
> >
> >      
>
>
>