permaculture

[LBSALTZMAN@aol.com]

Yes I got the same response, it is a form letter they are pumping out and  
it is very misleading. Here is an excellent rebuttal from Hahn's  lawyers:
_http://community.pacificlegal.org/Page.aspx?pid=1305_ 
(http://community.pacificlegal.org/Page.aspx?pid=1305) 
 
Larry  Saltzman  

 
In a message dated 8/16/2010 11:51:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
foodforest@earthlink.net writes:

re:  attack on worm castings,
just got this reply from the DPR thought it might  be of some interest  
to the group,
happy day to all,
grover  stock
Dear Mr. Stock:
The California Department of Pesticide Regulation  (DPR) began
investigating George Hahn’s Wormgold products in August 2004  in
response to complaints that they were being marketed to repel  bark
beetles in Southern California.

The investigation found that  Hahn had three products being marketed as
pesticides even though they had  not been registered by the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA)  or DPR. Pesticides must be
registered by U.S. EPA and DPR before they can  be used in California.

In 2000, Hahn approached U.S. EPA seeking to  register one of his
products as a pesticide. U.S. EPA was reluctant to do  so because the
microorganisms in the products could not be sufficiently  identified and
could be harmful to humans or plants.  U.S. EPA  scientists also were
concerned about the existence of pathogens in worm  castings and the
possible impact on human health.

U.S. EPA advised  Hahn, by letter on July 12, 2001, that he could not
make any pesticidal  claims on the product label or advertising such as
the Internet under the  Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide
Act (FIFRA) until the  product was registered as a pesticide, and
suggested he register the  product as a fertilizer only under less
stringent requirements. Although  Hahn declined to pursue registration
with EPA further, he continued to  aggressively market the products as
pesticides.

The federal and  state definitions of pesticides are not limited to
“killing pests.”   The definition of a pesticide is a substance
that is intended to be used to  “prevent, destroy, repel or mitigate”
a pest.  DPR is the state agency  that enforces FIFRA in California under
a memorandum of understanding with  U.S. EPA, as well as enforcing the
Food and Agricultural Code sections  relating to pesticide sale and use.

>From April 2003 through June 2005,  Mr. Hahn made more than $1.6 million
on the Wormgold products he  aggressively marketed as pesticides in
California.  He claimed that  the products could repel insects and
control fungus. At one retail store,  Wormgold was sold as a slug
killer.

In 2008, DPR issued a “notice of  proposed action” against Hahn and
several of his companies that called for  an administrative penalty of
$110,000 for the illegal sale of unregistered  pesticides. Hahn requested
an administrative hearing.

On May 13-14,  2009, a hearing was held before Administrative Law Judge
(ALJ) Ed Lowry in  Sacramento. At the hearing, Hahn testified that his
products work by  feeding the worms a special diet that increases
“chitinase” in the worm  castings.  At no time has Hahn stated
that the product works by  exuding an odor that repels pests. Testimony
at the hearing demonstrated  that Hahn buys worm castings from a company
that grows the worms and feeds  them a diet of cardboard sludge, a
byproduct of the paper industry.   DPR disputes that these wormcastings
are natural or organic, but asserts  that Hahn’s products are
manufactured.  DPR scientists dispute Hahn’s  assertion that the
products have any pesticidal capabilities and have  concern as to the
safety of the products.  Wormgold Plus is  manufactured by adding other
substances that are recognized fertilizers --  kelp, fossilized kelp and
rock mineral. Tree Rescue Solution consists of  Wormgold Plus, molasses,
humic acid, oak flour, air, water and brine.   These are not natural or
organic products.

Lowry found that “there  can be no question that insect control,
mitigation, and repellency was  touted in a way that makes the products
pesticides under the Act.”   Further, Lowry found that Hahn was advised
by U.S. EPA that he could not  advertise his products as pesticides and
thus “it put Mr. Hahn, his  consultant, and his business on notice that
pesticidal claims in whatever  form converted the products into
pesticides under the law.”  Lowry  also specifically found that
Hahn’s products are not produced by  nature.  “Instead, they are
the product of a non-
natural process  in which worms are fed industrially
created cardboard where Mr. Hahn’s best  guess is that the glue in the
cardboard elevates the chitinase in the worm  castings.” Lowry ordered
Hahn to pay a $100,000 administrative  penalty.

Mr. Hahn appealed this ruling in Sacramento Superior Court.  Last month,
that issued a tentative ruling against him.

Attached is  a copy of the Superior Court decision and the earlier  ALJ
decision.

DPR has not determined that Hahn’s product boosts  plants’ natural
resistance to pests so that it qualifies as a  pesticide.  DPR in fact
disputes this assertion. Hahn is free to sell  his products as
fertilizers and continues to do so.  He cannot,  however, sell the
products as pesticides without registration.

DPR’s  mission is to protect human health and the environment by
regulating  pesticide sales and use, and by fostering reduced-risk  pest
management.



Veda Federighi
Director of External  Affairs
On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:39 AM,  permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org  
wrote:

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>   3. Designing a Movement (steve  read)
>   4. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of  whatever) (Toby  
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>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>  Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:01:45 +1000
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> Subject: Re: [permaculture]  permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19
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> On  13/08/2010 11:15 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
>>  Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
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>>   permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
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>> When replying,  please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re:  Contents of permaculture digest..."
>>
>>
>>  Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: on an ethics of Mr  Pittman (and the US military)
>>       (Cory  Brennan)
>>    2. Re: Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of  whatever)
>>       (Daniel Mazen  Kablaoui)
>>    3. Re: Landscape architecture and  permaculture design,
>>       differences, how to  merge, where does one end and the other
>>        begin. (Scott Pittman)
>>    4. Re: Designing a Movement  (was: Ethics of whatever) (Cory  
>> Brennan)
>>   5. Re: Landscape architecture and permaculture  design,
>>       differences, how to merge, where  does one end and the other
>>       begin.  (Andrew McSwain)
>>    6. Re: Designing a Movement (was:  Ethics of whatever)
>>       (Andrew  McSwain)
>>
>>
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
>>  From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
>> To:  permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US
>>   military)
>>  Message-ID:<774547.30648.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
>>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>>  Linda,
>>
>> I believe that our strength lies in diversity -  we work in numerous  
>> countries with numerous types of people  who come from a wide  
>> variety of backgrounds and paradigms.  Teaching one class to a group  
>> of National Guardsmen hardly  puts us "in bed" with an occupying  
>> army. It's not unlike  planting one nitrogen fixing plant in a  
>> monocrop field. The  effects won't be felt by the field at all, but  
>> who knows  where the seeds will spread? This discussion might be  
>> more  relevant if someone had taken on a contract to train the  
>>  entire Army or Marine Corp, etc, in permaculture.
>>
>>  Best, Cory
>>
>> --- On Thu, 8/12/10,  LBUZZELL@aol.com<LBUZZELL@aol.com>   wrote:
>>
>>
>>> From:  LBUZZELL@aol.com<LBUZZELL@aol.com>
>>> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] on an ethics of Mr Pittman (and the US  
>>>  military)
>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>  Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 2:14 PM
>>> Hi  Cory,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the clarification.? It's true  that some
>>> psychiatrists were?
>>> involved as  well. Dr. Ewen Cameron is a frightening example
>>> of a  healing?
>>> professional gone  wrong.
>>>
>>> While I agree that the problems with  psychologists and
>>> psychiatrists aren't
>>>   an exact parallel, I believe it's wise to remember that in
>>> the  pioneering
>>> era of? Freud and Jung, when psychiatry and  therapy
>>> were as young as
>>> permaculture is? now,  the new field of mental health
>>> was reasonably  idealistic,
>>> mostly talk? therapy and some notable free care  social
>>> initiatives.? We've had?
>>> over 100 years  to screw up the profession.? I'm sure
>>> the early  pioneers?
>>> would be spinning in their graves at the field's  current
>>> drug pushing,?
>>> mind-bending marketing  research and military
>>> collusions.? ? Looking at  this
>>> history, I still feel it a cautionary tale for  any
>>> new? profession thinking of
>>> embedding  itself in an occupying army.
>>>
>>> And yes of course  Scott isn't doing anything like what some
>>> of  today's?
>>> mental health military collaborators (what else can  you
>>> call them?) are doing,?
>>> but I believe that  permaculture should be cautious about
>>> taking even  one
>>> tiny? step along that  road...
>>>
>>>  Linda
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated  8/12/2010 1:26:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight
>>> Time,?
>>>  cory8570@yahoo.com
>>> writes:
>>>
>>>  Linda,?
>>>
>>> The situation with  psychiatrists/psychologists is quite
>>> different  than?
>>> permaculture. Mainstream psychiatrists' main activity  is
>>> using drugs,?
>>> electroshock, involuntary  commitment and other invasive
>>> methods to treat?  mental
>>> symptoms - this is not a sustainable practice nor is  it
>>> holistic. I am? aware
>>> of the divisive camps  within psychology, where some are
>>> more focused  on?
>>> holistic, regenerative approaches and some are  just
>>> referral services for drug?
>>> companies via  MDs or psychiatrists.
>>>
>>> "Journey Into Madness"  and other? documentation
>>> illustrates how
>>>  psychiatrists were in fact behind the CIA mind?
>>> control  experiments on unsuspecting
>>> Canadian and US citizens  (MKULTRA), drug? and lobotomy
>>> experimentation  on
>>> prisoners and minorities, eugenics policies in? the  US
>>> and Germany, etc. Some of
>>> the most  respected psychiatrists at? Universities were
>>> involved  in
>>> military/intelligence operations that led to use?  of
>>> torture techniques throughout
>>> the world in  various military organizations? (Middle
>>> East, El Salvador,  etc).?
>>> Psychiatrists do take the Hippocratic? Oath  but
>>> obviously, there are a
>>> number of them that  have broken that oath.? They were
>>> not "co-opted"  or
>>> corrupted, it was their idea in the first place.?  They
>>> (like Dr Ewen Camaron -
>>> "psychic  driving") were already doing these?
>>> experiments on their  patients before
>>> partnering with the  military.
>>>
>>> I? can't see Scott (who was one of  my instructors for
>>> my PDC) or any of the
>>> rest?  of us going down any such road. It is not the
>>> same thing, at  all.?
>>>
>>> Cory
>>>
>>> ---  On Thu, 8/12/10, LBUZZELL@aol.com?
>>>  <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> From:  LBUZZELL@aol.com?
>>>>
>>>  <LBUZZELL@aol.com>
>>>
>>>> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] on an ethics of? Mr
>>>>
>>> Pittman  (and the US
>>> military)
>>>
>>>> To:?  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Date: Thursday, August 12,  2010, 1:05? PM
>>>> you might want to ask  permaculture
>>>> activist Joshua Fattal? who has?  been
>>>>
>>>>> arrested by the Iranian  government and
>>>>>
>>> accused?  of
>>>
>>>> espionage whether?  it
>>>>
>>>>> would help him or others? like  him that
>>>>>
>>>  "permaculture"
>>>
>>>> is  now
>>>>
>>>>> ? celebrated as a? US army  reserve
>>>>>
>>> "hearts  and
>>>
>>>>  minds"
>>>>
>>>>>  ???counterinsurgency/sustainment
>>>>>
>>>  technique
>>>
>>>> ?
>>>> I have to  admit? that this point is hard to
>>>>
>>>  disagree
>>>
>>>> ?  with.???Permaculture
>>>> was perhaps better off when it? was  seen as a
>>>> politically? neutral  Australian
>>>> land and? people care system being used in  many
>>>> countries? with widely?
>>>> different  governmental systems, from Cuba to the US.
>>>>  ???
>>>> Although I'm very sympathetic to Scott's and  others'
>>>> ? eagerness to spread?
>>>>  permaculture far and wide, I must conclude?  that
>>>>
>>> it was  a
>>>
>>>> mistake for world?
>>>>  permaculture to get? involved with the
>>>>
>>>  first-world occupying
>>>
>>>> army in a  third?
>>>> ? world country, however eager the recruits  were
>>>>
>>> to  learn
>>>
>>>>  about???permaculture.
>>>> ?
>>>>  ?
>>>> Corporations have but one? motive: profit.  Armies
>>>>
>>>  likewise
>>>
>>>> have but one?
>>>>  motive: to? use force or other more subtle
>>>>
>>>  enforcement
>>>
>>>> methods to  vanquish???
>>>> enemies.? Their aims and even techniques  may
>>>>
>>> appear  to
>>>
>>>> ? be beneficient,? but  we
>>>> must not be naive.? And even if we?  view
>>>>
>>> some  military
>>>
>>>> as "good? guys,"  how
>>>> does? permaculture make the distinction on  a
>>>>
>>> global  level
>>>
>>>>  without???politicizing
>>>> itself?
>>>>  ?
>>>> Permaculture is an? exciting new profession  and
>>>>
>>> deserves  to
>>>
>>>> flourish?
>>>> ?  independent of destructive entanglements.?
>>>>
>>>  I have seen
>>>
>>>> ? similar? problems happen  in
>>>> my own field of mental health:? psychologists  who
>>>>
>>>  got
>>>
>>>> involved with the
>>>>  military? developed torture techniques for  the
>>>>
>>> CIA  and
>>>
>>>> were,? alas,?  actively
>>>> involved at Abu Ghraib.? I realize  we
>>>>
>>> haven't?  done
>>>
>>>> anything? like this yet  --
>>>> but caution is needed.? The "psychology in  the
>>>> military"? issue has split the
>>>> ?  American Psychological Association into  warring
>>>>
>>>  factions
>>>
>>>> for???years,  some
>>>> supporting those involved with the military  and
>>>> ? others? against.?
>>>>  ?
>>>> In just this short? dialogue I see the  beginnings
>>>>
>>> of  similar
>>>
>>>> problems in?
>>>> ?  permaculture unless some clear ethical
>>>>
>>>  guidelines are laid
>>>
>>>> down to?  prevent?
>>>> permaculture from being used by the military  and?
>>>>
>>>  various
>>>
>>>> governments for  their
>>>> ? own purposes.? Psychiatrists, by the  way,
>>>>
>>> avoided  the
>>>
>>>> problems faced by  the?
>>>> ? psychologists because they take a  Hippocratic
>>>>
>>> oath  that
>>>
>>>> ? prevents them  from
>>>> doing? some of the unfortunate things  a?
>>>>
>>> few
>>>
>>>>  psychologists have done.
>>>> ?
>>>> Linda?  Buzzell-Saltzman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?  _______________________________________________
>>>>  permaculture mailing? list
>>>>  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subscribe or unsubscribe?  here:
>>>>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>> ?  Google command to search archives:
>>>> ?  site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>>>> ?  searchstring
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture  mailing? list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>  Subscribe or unsubscribe? here:
>>>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Google?  command to search? archives:
>>>  site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture?
>>>  searchstring
>>>  _______________________________________________
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>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>  Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
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>>>  searchstring
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>>  Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:11:50 -0700
>> From: Daniel Mazen  Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>
>> To:  permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
>>   whatever)
>>  Message-ID:<A37E0474-043E-4D64-96E0-703CAC4D1147@gmail.com>
>>  Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=utf-8;   format=flowed;  delsp=yes
>>
>> Word to rafter  sass.
>> We gotta keep it moving.
>> Show and  prove.
>>
>> You can't stop people; the best put the danks  down.
>>
>> I was thinking of how uncomfortable the lack of  design in the system
>> itself. But. (but) but the stretch of Pc goes  all the way past that
>> idea design. zone 5 Scott Pittman  committment witness to reserve, and
>> maybe Permaculture itself  should and will indeed always have its  
>> zone  5.
>>
>> Who wants to step up to the garden rigt outside the  kitchen (what's
>> the kitchen?); who will hold down zone 1. Because  - as for  
>> allergies -
>> it sounds like (to Me)  there are people who don't have them. They are
>> being listened  to!
>>
>> But maybe it's not an allergy as much as  hereditary condition
>> (hereditary allergy?)... We will see, we are  all different.
>>
>> Seems like some of em permies don't  have it; and zone 1 is what's
>> happening for  them.
>>
>> Who can make the idea clear; bring the style  eminent? There are those
>> who stick to the ground, working for  themselves - what zone is that  
>> in
>> this  community?
>>
>> For we are apparently arranged in a space  already - discern yourself
>> if you can in this  context...
>>
>> Here they are, talking. The relationships  exist anyway, and insight  
>> is
>>  possible.
>>
>> Cool discussion (glad I checked in  guys)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:08  PM, gavinraders@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  Beautiful. Thank you Rafter. Great to see this conversation  come
>>> around full circle, but even more so, to hear the next  generation of
>>> leaders in this movement coming into their own,  finding their
>>> eloquent powerful voices, and raising the  critical questions that
>>> need to be raised if we are ever going  to move permaculture beyond
>>> what it has been. Here's to  succession, evolution, and dialectical
>>> engagement within our  movement.
>>> Thats all I have time for now. But i take your words  with me in the
>>> day-to-day work and struggle. Hope to reconnect  soon Rafter!
>>>
>>> Gavin Raders
>>>  Co-Founder, Planting Justice
>>>  www.plantingjustice.org
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone,  powered by CREDO Mobile.
>>>
>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>> From: rafter  sass<rafter@liberationecology.org>
>>> Sender:  permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010  16:55:39
>>> To: Northeastern Permaculture  
(List)<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net
>>>
>>>>  ;<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>
>>>  Reply-To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>  Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of   
>>> whatever)
>>>
>>>
>>>  Many heartfelt thanks  to the folks who have been able to  engage
>>> with the challenges of this conversation without  descending into
>>> name-calling and other  juvenilia.
>>>
>>>  ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin Skvorak has  Problems.
>>>
>>> Two of them, for the purposes of  this conversation. ;)
>>>
>>> One of them is a  Personal Problem - he seems to have contracted the
>>> modern  anarchist's allergy to leadership. The symptoms include
>>>  putting critique before curiosity.
>>> I hope he works on this. I  think he would be even more effective in
>>> raising critical  topics and questions if he did.
>>>
>>> The other is  NOT a Personal Problem. It's another kind of problem
>>>  altogether - a Movement Problem.
>>>
>>> He wants to  be a part of a movement that practices an engaged and
>>> ongoing  dialogue about its own ethics and strategy - and the
>>>  actually-existing Permaculture movement can't really be  described
>>> this way. Not quite - not  yet.
>>>
>>> What's standing in the  way?
>>> Well, a lot of the movement leadership seems to have  contracted the
>>> classic leader's malaise of allergy to  critique.
>>> Juvenile defensiveness, on the part of our teachers  and public
>>> faces, is a problem that is going to do us real  harm, as a movement
>>> - if it isn't mitigated.
>>>  Or maybe we all just need to get really good at gentle,  soothing,
>>> critique, so that we don't insult or frighten them  when we have hard
>>> questions to ask. ;)
>>> (And  yes - I definitely respond better to that,  too!)
>>>
>>> And if that weren't enough, a lot of  folks in the movement - along
>>> with most everybody else in the  world - don't have a great toolbox
>>> when it comes to thinking  about design and strategy at different
>>> scales. What does it  even mean to build a movement - or design one?
>>> We aren't well  prepared to answer. And we, of all movements, might
>>> want to  think hard about the question.
>>>
>>> I don't claim  to know the answer, but I DO know that it requires
>>> more and  different tools than the ones we use to transform an
>>>  individual, or regenerate a landscape,
>>> or organize a project,  etc. etc.
>>>
>>> Individual, project, community,  movement, world...
>>> The principles I use to guide my behavior  and my relationships are
>>> related, but distinct, from the ones  that I bring to creating
>>> strategy for the projects I work  on.
>>> The criteria I use to design my projects are related, but  distinct
>>> from the ones I use to understand and work with my  community.
>>> And the tools I use to engage and enliven my  community are related,
>>> but distinct from the ones that I use  to build and strategize my
>>>  movement.
>>>
>>> So for me, arguments that we should  go anywhere and teach Pc to
>>> anyone, for anyone, because  Pc  is automagically transformative, are
>>>  wrongheaded.
>>> A good PDC might actually be able to transform  anyone that takes it
>>> - but that doesn't mean that teaching  that class is good for the
>>> movement.
>>> As Annie  Pollock points out, greenwashing is real, and we are
>>> already  dealing with the challenges of the Permaculture label being
>>>  applied to all kinds of things we don't
>>> want to be associated  with.
>>>
>>> We could go and teach a PDC at a  whites-only Afrikaaner "ecovillage"
>>> like Orania, and maybe it  would have a profound impact on the people
>>> who took  it.
>>> But (1) most of us would be, shall we say, reluctant? for  Pc to be
>>> seen as a tool for building a racially pure  Volkstaat, and (2) the
>>> Oranians already identify with  Permaculture, so I guess an
>>> ecological holistic worldview  WON'T necessarily guide someone out of
>>> an oppressive,  ethnocentric social vison.
>>>
>>> Teaching Pc for,  and to, white nationalists, would be bad for the
>>>  movement.
>>>
>>> (For more evidence that fascism and  ecology can survive in the same
>>> brain, look into Rudolph  Steiner's theories on race. Or even more
>>> frightening, search  Stormfront.org for entries on Permaculture.
>>> Note: the point  here is to debunk oversimplified models of change,
>>> and magical  thinking about Permaculture education - not to compare
>>> the  National Guard project to white supremacy.)
>>>
>>>  And vice versa: what's bad for the individual or project can be  good
>>> for the movement. The lynching of civil rights movement  workers
>>> James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner,  in 1964, was a
>>> horrific tragedy for them, their friends, and  families - and a
>>> historic watershed for the civil rights  movement.
>>>
>>> The point of these case studies is  to say: we may not know how to
>>> design a movement,  but
>>> it ain't entirely like designing a  PDC.
>>>
>>> We are called, by our commitments,  ethics, and desires, to figure it
>>> out. With each  other.
>>>
>>> OK, I'm actually supposed to be packing  and moving right now, so I'm
>>> going to cut this  off.
>>> What are we doing to do with this movement of  ours?
>>>
>>>
>>> all love, respect, and  hard questions,
>>>  rafter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> rafter  sass
>>> Liberation Ecology Project
>>>  liberationecology.org
>>> 518-567-7407
>>> skype:  raughter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture  mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>  Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>>>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Google  command to search archives:
>>>  site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture  searchstring
>>>  _______________________________________________
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>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>>> Google  command to search archives:
>>>  site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture  searchstring
>>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>>  Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:56:35 -0600
>> From: "Scott  Pittman"<scott@permaculture.org>
>> To:  "'permaculture'"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject:  Re: [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture
>>   design, differences, how to merge, where does one end and the  other
>>  begin.
>>  Message-ID:<51C14E12C51541E6868D4FD4DA8A34BA@ScottPC>
>>  Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> What I see most landscape  architects doing is infill for  
>> architectural
>>  projects with neither group looking for sustainable outcomes.  If   
>> the two
>> disciplines were combined it would make a  world of good sense.   
>> Permaculture
>>  combines both landscape and building in a whole system approach   
>> that is
>> looking to fulfill the ethical requirements  of permaculture; these  
>> ethical
>> considerations  do not exist, as far as I know, in either  
>> architecture  or
>> landscape architecture.
>>
>> What I am  seeing in the architectural field is an attempt to green  
>> up  with
>> the Leed Certification program which to me is another cagey  way to  
>> separate
>> the client from his pocket  book.  Energy efficiency should be  
>> required  of
>> all construction as it is mandated by permaculture  ethics.
>>
>> I live in a permaculture design and tried to  be a demonstration  
>> site for a
>> short time until  I realized that all of my time was spent teaching  
>>  clueless
>> tourists and the place was going to hell.  While I  long for  
>> demonstration
>> sites I wouldn't wish it  on anyone unless they figure a way to make  
>>  enough
>> money from eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as  afford to  
>> hire a
>> full time tour guide.   This is what Bill Mollison wound up doing when
>> Tyalgum was  operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
>> scheduling  two tours a week.
>>
>> For my esthetic I believe that a  functional pc design is incredible
>> beautiful and part of that  beauty is that it is messy like nature  
>> rather
>>  than ordered and Euclidian like humans.
>>
>> Scott  Pittman
>> Director
>> Permaculture Institute
>>  www.permaculture.org
>>
>> -----Original  Message-----
>> From: Jonathan Storvick  [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:55  AM
>> To: permaculture
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture]  Landscape architecture and permaculture  
>> design,
>>  differences, how to merge, where does one end and the other  begin.
>>
>> This is a topic that has been on my mind for  some time now.  Taking  
>> the PDC
>> course was  a life-changing event for me that was a catalyst for  
>>  further
>> educational forays.  At this point, I am back in  college working  
>> towards my
>> A.A.S. in  Horticulture Technology - Landscape Design  
>>  Specialization.  It has
>> been an interesting experience  comparing and contrasting methods and
>> approaches between  permaculture and landscape design, and I agree -  
>>  while
>> there is considerable overlap, there is much that can and  needs to be
>> reconciled between the two.
>>
>>  Perhaps the primary difference between the two is the focus on  either
>> function (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole  systems design  
>> etc.)
>> with permaculture, and  form (aesthetics, ornamentalism,  
>> subordination  to
>> architectural forms) with landscape design.  This is not  to say that
>> permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that  traditional  
>> landscapes never
>> contain functional  or edible systems, but the primary focus is  
>>  different.
>>
>> My own goal is to run a company that does  design/build of edible  
>> landscapes
>> using  permaculture methods and philosophy, while amping the  
>>  aesthetic value
>> and utilizing the technical skills I'm learning  while studying  
>> traditional
>> landscape design,  sort of a mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
>> permaculture,  edible forest gardening a la Jacke&  Toensmeier, the   
>> Creasy&
>> Kourik school of edible landscaping, and  traditional garden design.
>>
>> On a side note - I feel  like I hear way too often about  
>> "permaculture  demo
>> sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's imaginations,  and way  
>> too
>> little about what folks are doing  on the ground on their own land  
>> for their
>> own  benefit.  I'm sure that having demo sites is wonderful for   
>> introducing
>> people to permaculture concepts, but I  figure the best "demo" one  
>> can offer
>> is a  functioning system that is in place and directly benefiting 
>>  those
>> on-site.  Live by example, right?  I'd rather eke  out a decent living
>> designing permaculture landscapes for people  who are going to be  
>> eating from
>> the trees I  plant, than make a ton of money putting together a big
>>  demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see how eco-friendly I  am"
>> property that won't be used on a regular  basis.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>  Jon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at  1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.<
>>  venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>   wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Just a few initial thoughts to  try and start a new discussion  
>>>  thread:
>>>
>>> It would be worth using the best of  both disciplines, especially  
>>> for those
>>>  who offer any kind of landscaping services, where does  landscape
>>> architecture and related subfields end and  permaculture begin or  
>>> vice
>>>
>>  versa
>>
>>> or how to combine the best of both to  practice permaculture and
>>> eco-landscape architecture to the  max. The disciplines are very  
>>>  different
>>>
>> in
>>
>>> obvious  ways, i.e. certified, bondable industrial landscape plans   
>>> and on
>>>
>>  the
>>
>>> other hand permaculture designs to implement  that work as well as  
>>> their
>>> landscape  counterpart in every way, especially being  aesthetically
>>>
>> pleasing
>>
>>>  and spiritually rewarding (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and   
>>> Country
>>> Life Movement English cottage  gardens).
>>>
>>> For those offering services and are  looking for substantial jobs for
>>> clients who can afford them I  would imagine there would be as many
>>> customers for  permaculture site design and implementation as there  
>>>  would
>>>
>> be
>>
>>> for landscape  design and installation. I hear from many  
>>>  permaculturists
>>> getting involved in the consultation and  design field
>>> that they have found many wealthy clients who  invest in raw land  
>>> and want
>>> to turn it  into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there is
>>>  "permaculture demonstration site".
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture  mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>  Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>>>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Google  command to search archives:
>>>  site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture  searchstring
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>>  Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:18:37 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Cory  Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
>> To:  permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
>>   whatever)
>>  Message-ID:<182889.64902.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
>>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> The  movement is already happening, in cooperatives in Venezuala, in   
>> farmer's seed burning of Monsanto GMO in Haiti, in small farmer  and  
>> local food movements all over the world, in local  currencies,  
>> intentional communities, indigenous uprisings  to protect  
>> ecosystems, etc, etc. It is even happening in  some of the most  
>> entrenched institutions such as a few  public schools.
>>
>> An effective way to keep the word  permaculture meaning what it  
>> actually means is to control  the definitions of it. So we need to  
>> watch Wiki sites, get  our definitions into dictionaries and  
>> encyclopedias,  etc.  And to stay alert to media misdefinitions of  
>> it  as well and correct them where possible. Having it trademarked   
>> helps too. I've always believed that is a strategy for keeping  a  
>> subject from being co-opted by hostile vested  interests.  And of  
>> course having manuals and textbooks  such as Mollison's and  
>> Holmgren's work. It's starting to  move into the university world as  
>> well, with Mollison's  textbook as the bedrock of it.
>>
>> I think that the  concerns about one small unit of national  
>> guardsmen  co-opting permaculture are pretty unreal. There are so  
>> many  tools that we have that can counteract that. It's created some   
>> interesting conversation so I'm glad it came up. I believe that  the  
>> best way to stay in control of a subject is to be  proactive, not to  
>> go off in our corners and refuse to  associate with people.  
>> Universities ae going to start  teaching this subject sooner or  
>> later. Let's make sure they  get it right. It's inevitable that  
>> permaculture will move  into the mainstream whether we help it or  
>> not. Let's be  proactive and guide and inform that process as much  
>> as  possible.
>>
>> It is certainly possible to manipulate and  undermine a movement,  
>> but when communities are ready for a  certain level of truth, almost  
>> nothing can stop that  momentum. The Civil Rights movement is a  
>> great example of  that.
>>
>> Eloquent, passionate leadership is an important  component of the  
>> success of movements. We would do well to  support our vocal and  
>> eloquent  spokespeople.
>>
>>  Cory
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu,  8/12/10, Daniel Mazen Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>    
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> From: Daniel Mazen  Kablaoui<dankablaoui@gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of  
>>>  whatever)
>>> To:  "permaculture"<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Date:  Thursday, August 12, 2010, 3:11 PM
>>> Word to rafter  sass.
>>> We gotta keep it moving.
>>> Show and  prove.
>>>
>>> You can't stop people; the best put the  danks down.
>>>
>>> I was thinking of how  uncomfortable the lack of design in
>>> the system itself. But.  (but) but the stretch of Pc goes all
>>> the way past that idea  design. zone 5 Scott Pittman
>>> committment witness to reserve,  and maybe Permaculture
>>> itself should and will indeed always  have its zone 5.
>>>
>>> Who wants to step up to the  garden rigt outside the kitchen
>>> (what's the kitchen?); who  will hold down zone 1. Because -
>>> as for allergies - it sounds  like (to Me) there are people
>>> who don't have them. They are  being listened to!
>>>
>>> But maybe it's not an  allergy as much as hereditary
>>> condition (hereditary  allergy?)... We will see, we are all
>>>  different.
>>>
>>> Seems like some of em permies don't  have it; and zone 1 is
>>> what's happening for  them.
>>>
>>> Who can make the idea clear; bring the  style eminent? There
>>> are those who stick to the ground,  working for themselves -
>>> what zone is that in this  community?
>>>
>>> For we are apparently arranged in a  space already - discern
>>> yourself if you can in this  context...
>>>
>>> Here they are, talking. The  relationships exist anyway, and
>>> insight is  possible.
>>>
>>> Cool discussion (glad I checked in  guys)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug  12, 2010, at 2:08 PM, gavinraders@gmail.com
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Beautiful. Thank  you Rafter. Great to see this
>>>>
>>> conversation  come around full circle, but even more so, to
>>> hear the next  generation of leaders in this movement coming
>>> into their own,  finding their eloquent powerful voices, and
>>> raising the  critical questions that need to be raised if we
>>> are ever going  to move permaculture beyond what it has been.
>>> Here's to  succession, evolution, and dialectical engagement
>>> within our  movement.
>>>
>>>> Thats all I have time for now.  But i take your words
>>>>
>>> with me in the  day-to-day work and struggle. Hope to
>>> reconnect soon  Rafter!
>>>
>>>> Gavin Raders
>>>>  Co-Founder, Planting Justice
>>>>  www.plantingjustice.org
>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry?  smartphone, powered by CREDO
>>>>
>>>  Mobile.
>>>
>>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>>> From: rafter  sass<rafter@liberationecology.org>
>>>> Sender:  permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Aug  2010 16:55:39
>>>> To: Northeastern Permaculture  
(List)<northeasternpermaculture@lists.riseup.net 
>>>>  >;
>>>>
>>>  <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>
>>>>  Reply-To:  permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>  Subject: [permaculture] Designing a Movement  (was:
>>>>
>>> Ethics of  whatever)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Many  heartfelt thanks? to the folks who have  been
>>>>
>>> able to engage with the challenges of  this conversation
>>> without descending  into
>>>
>>>> name-calling and other  juvenilia.
>>>>
>>>>  ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kevin Skvorak  has Problems.
>>>>
>>>> Two of them, for the  purposes of this conversation.
>>>>
>>>  ;)
>>>
>>>> One of them is a Personal Problem - he  seems to have
>>>>
>>> contracted the modern  anarchist's allergy to leadership. The
>>> symptoms include  putting critique before curiosity.
>>>
>>>> I hope  he works on this. I think he would be even  more
>>>>
>>> effective in raising critical topics  and questions if he
>>> did.
>>>
>>>>  The other is NOT a Personal Problem. It's another  kind
>>>>
>>> of problem altogether - a Movement  Problem.
>>>
>>>> He wants to be a part of a  movement that practices an
>>>>
>>> engaged and  ongoing dialogue about its own ethics and
>>> strategy - and the  actually-existing Permaculture movement
>>> can't really be  described this way. Not quite - not yet.
>>>
>>>>  What's standing in the way?
>>>> Well, a lot of the movement  leadership seems to have
>>>>
>>> contracted the  classic leader's malaise of allergy to
>>>  critique.
>>>
>>>> Juvenile defensiveness, on the  part of our teachers
>>>>
>>> and public faces, is  a problem that is going to do us real
>>> harm, as a movement - if  it isn't mitigated.
>>>
>>>> Or maybe we all just  need to get really good at
>>>>
>>> gentle,  soothing, critique, so that we don't insult or
>>> frighten them  when we have hard questions to ask. ;)
>>>
>>>>  (And yes - I definitely respond better to that,  too!)
>>>>
>>>> And if that weren't enough, a  lot of folks in the
>>>>
>>> movement - along with  most everybody else in the world -
>>> don't have a great toolbox  when it comes to thinking about
>>> design and strategy at  different scales. What does it even
>>> mean to build a movement -  or design one? We aren't well
>>> prepared to answer. And we, of  all movements, might want to
>>> think hard about the  question.
>>>
>>>> I don't claim to know the  answer, but I DO know that
>>>>
>>> it requires  more and different tools than the ones we use to
>>> transform an  individual, or regenerate a landscape,
>>>
>>>> or  organize a project, etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>>  Individual, project, community, movement, world...
>>>> The  principles I use to guide my behavior and  my
>>>>
>>> relationships are related, but  distinct, from the ones that
>>> I bring to creating strategy for  the projects I work on.
>>>
>>>> The criteria I use  to design my projects are related,
>>>>
>>> but  distinct from the ones I use to understand and work with
>>> my  community.
>>>
>>>> And the tools I use to engage  and enliven my community
>>>>
>>> are related, but  distinct from the ones that I use to build
>>> and strategize my  movement.
>>>
>>>> So for me, arguments that we  should go anywhere and
>>>>
>>> teach Pc to anyone,  for anyone, because Pc? is
>>> automagically transformative, are  wrongheaded.
>>>
>>>> A good PDC might actually be  able to transform anyone
>>>>
>>> that takes it -  but that doesn't mean that teaching that
>>> class is good for the  movement.
>>>
>>>> As Annie Pollock points out,  greenwashing is real, and
>>>>
>>> we are already  dealing with the challenges of the
>>> Permaculture label being  applied to all kinds of things we
>>>  don't
>>>
>>>> want to be associated  with.
>>>>
>>>> We could go and teach a PDC at a  whites-only
>>>>
>>> Afrikaaner "ecovillage" like  Orania, and maybe it would have
>>> a profound impact on the  people who took it.
>>>
>>>> But (1) most of us  would be, shall we say, reluctant?
>>>>
>>> for Pc  to be seen as a tool for building a racially pure
>>> Volkstaat,  and (2) the Oranians already identify with
>>> Permaculture, so I  guess an ecological holistic worldview
>>> WON'T necessarily guide  someone out of an oppressive,
>>> ethnocentric social  vison.
>>>
>>>> Teaching Pc for, and to, white  nationalists, would be
>>>>
>>> bad for the  movement.
>>>
>>>> (For more evidence that fascism  and ecology can
>>>>
>>> survive in the same brain,  look into Rudolph Steiner's
>>> theories on race. Or even more  frightening, search
>>> Stormfront.org for entries on  Permaculture. Note: the point
>>> here is to debunk oversimplified  models of change, and
>>> magical thinking about Permaculture  education - not to
>>> compare the National Guard project to white  supremacy.)
>>>
>>>> And vice versa: what's bad for  the individual or
>>>>
>>> project can be good for  the movement. The lynching of civil
>>> rights movement workers  James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and
>>> Michael Schwerner, in 1964,  was a horrific tragedy for them,
>>> their friends, and families -  and a historic watershed for
>>> the civil rights  movement.
>>>
>>>> The point of these case studies  is to say: we may not
>>>>
>>> know how to design a  movement, but
>>>
>>>> it ain't entirely like  designing a PDC.
>>>>
>>>> We are called, by our  commitments, ethics, and
>>>>
>>> desires, to  figure it out. With each other.
>>>
>>>> OK, I'm  actually supposed to be packing and moving
>>>>
>>>  right now, so I'm going to cut this off.
>>>
>>>>  What are we doing to do with this movement of  ours?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> all love,  respect, and hard questions,
>>>>  rafter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  rafter sass
>>>> Liberation Ecology Project
>>>>  liberationecology.org
>>>> 518-567-7407
>>>>  skype:  raughter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  permaculture mailing list
>>>>  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subscribe or unsubscribe  here:
>>>>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>  Google command to search archives:
>>>>  site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>>>>
>>>  searchstring
>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  permaculture mailing list
>>>>  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subscribe or unsubscribe  here:
>>>>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>  Google command to search archives:
>>>>  site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture
>>>>
>>>  searchstring
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture  mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>  Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>>>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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>>>  searchstring
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>>  Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:53:51 -0300
>> From: Andrew  McSwain<aeromax.way@gmail.com>
>> To:  permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] Landscape architecture and permaculture
>>   design, differences, how to merge, where does one end and the  other
>>  begin.
>> Message-ID:
>>   <AANLkTinDWpmZhFzueBaMd4vJM325M=CibHaZOP_0p9+y@mail.gmail.com>
>>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> I agree  with your aesthetical considerations. I consider the  
>>  preference for
>> messy nature-like gardens based on a commonly  overlooked  
>> philosophical
>> principle: that our  sense of "order" is really just a streamlining or
>> cleaning (and i  mean that in the sense of what bleach does) of all  
>>  elements
>> and interconnections of a system that we consider as  impediments or
>> otherwise useless for that system to accomplish  it's human purpose:  
>> serving
>> our personal  interests.  Creating order in most cases is really  
>>  just a nice
>> way to say that you're stripping the system of it's  multi- 
>> functionality and
>> ability to find it's own  purposes (innovations). Disorder is really  
>> just
>>  sharing the space and resources so that other interests can benefit   
>> too.
>>
>> In that sense our sense of order,  even when applied to our lawns,  
>> is the
>>  perpetuation of our culture of domination and bigotry. And  
>>  ecosystems are
>> naturally just and egalitarian (depending on how  that word is  
>> applied).
>>
>> Aside from  the obvious ecological implications of permaculture in  
>>  saving
>> wilderness, providing food security, and regenerating  broken soils,  
>> one of
>> the primary reasons for my  continued interest in permaculture is as  
>> much a
>>  social one as an ecological. It's ability to bridge the gap between   
>> an
>> ecological sense of order and the eucilidean sort  used in most  
>> schools of
>> landscape  archeitecture.
>>
>>  Perhaps through permaculture's  widespread implementation in public  
>> spaces
>> we  will start to change our understanding of Order and how we apply   
>> that to
>> our environments. Order is also creating  relationships, not just  
>> destroying
>> the ones  that serve our immediate ends, and if we can make our  
>>  cities and
>> our yards and lawns more like nature, maybe our  mindsets will also  
>> change
>> and make room for  other opinions, views, and interests that are at  
>>  times
>> even contrary to our own!
>>
>> On Thu,  Aug 12, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Scott  
>>  Pittman<scott@permaculture.org>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  What I see most landscape architects doing is infill for   
>>> architectural
>>> projects with neither group  looking for sustainable outcomes.  If  
>>> the  two
>>> disciplines were combined it would make a world of good  sense.
>>>  Permaculture
>>> combines both  landscape and building in a whole system approach  
>>> that  is
>>> looking to fulfill the ethical requirements of  permaculture; these  
>>> ethical
>>>  considerations do not exist, as far as I know, in either   
>>> architecture or
>>> landscape  architecture.
>>>
>>> What I am seeing in the  architectural field is an attempt to green  
>>> up  with
>>> the Leed Certification program which to me is another  cagey way to  
>>> separate
>>> the client from  his pocket book.  Energy efficiency should be  
>>>  required of
>>> all construction as it is mandated by permaculture  ethics.
>>>
>>> I live in a permaculture design and  tried to be a demonstration  
>>> site for a
>>>  short time until I realized that all of my time was spent teaching   
>>> clueless
>>> tourists and the place was going to  hell.  While I long for  
>>>  demonstration
>>> sites I wouldn't wish it on anyone unless they  figure a way to  
>>> make enough
>>> money from  eco-tourists to pay for their time as well as afford to  
>>>  hire a
>>> full time tour guide.  This is what Bill Mollison  wound up doing  
>>> when
>>> Tyalgum was  operating, and the tour guide did reasonable well with
>>>  scheduling two tours a week.
>>>
>>> For my esthetic I  believe that a functional pc design is incredible
>>> beautiful  and part of that beauty is that it is messy like nature  
>>>  rather
>>> than ordered and Euclidian like  humans.
>>>
>>> Scott Pittman
>>>  Director
>>> Permaculture Institute
>>>  www.permaculture.org
>>>
>>> -----Original  Message-----
>>> From: Jonathan Storvick  [mailto:jstorvick@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010  11:55 AM
>>> To: permaculture
>>> Subject: Re:  [permaculture] Landscape architecture and  
>>> permaculture  design,
>>> differences, how to merge, where does one end and the  other begin.
>>>
>>> This is a topic that has been on  my mind for some time now.   
>>> Taking the  PDC
>>> course was a life-changing event for me that was a  catalyst for  
>>> further
>>> educational  forays.  At this point, I am back in college working   
>>> towards my
>>> A.A.S. in Horticulture Technology  - Landscape Design  
>>> Specialization.   It
>>> has
>>> been an interesting experience  comparing and contrasting methods and
>>> approaches between  permaculture and landscape design, and I agree  
>>> -  while
>>> there is considerable overlap, there is much that can  and needs to  
>>> be
>>> reconciled between the  two.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the primary difference between  the two is the focus on  
>>> either
>>> function  (usefulness to humans, edible plants, whole systems  
>>>  design etc.)
>>> with permaculture, and form (aesthetics,  ornamentalism,  
>>> subordination to
>>>  architectural forms) with landscape design.  This is not to say  that
>>> permaculture gardens aren't beautiful, or that  traditional  
>>> landscapes never
>>> contain  functional or edible systems, but the primary focus is  
>>>  different.
>>>
>>> My own goal is to run a company  that does design/build of edible  
>>>  landscapes
>>> using permaculture methods and philosophy, while  amping the  
>>> aesthetic value
>>> and  utilizing the technical skills I'm learning while studying   
>>> traditional
>>> landscape design, sort of a  mishmash between Mollison/Holmgren-style
>>> permaculture, edible  forest gardening a la Jacke&  Toensmeier, the  
>>>  Creasy&
>>> Kourik school of edible landscaping, and  traditional garden design.
>>>
>>> On a side note - I  feel like I hear way too often about  
>>> "permaculture  demo
>>> sites" that seem to exist mostly in people's  imaginations, and way  
>>> too
>>> little about  what folks are doing on the ground on their own land  
>>>  for their
>>> own benefit.  I'm sure that having demo sites  is wonderful for  
>>> introducing
>>> people to  permaculture concepts, but I figure the best "demo" one  
>>>  can offer
>>> is a functioning system that is in place and  directly benefiting  
>>> those
>>>  on-site.  Live by example, right?  I'd rather eke out a decent   
>>> living
>>> designing permaculture landscapes for  people who are going to be  
>>> eating
>>>  from
>>> the trees I plant, than make a ton of money putting  together a big
>>> demonstration site on a wealthy client's "see  how eco-friendly I am"
>>> property that won't be used on a  regular basis.
>>>
>>>  Cheers,
>>>
>>>  Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu,  Aug 12, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr.<
>>>  venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>   wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Just a few initial  thoughts to try and start a new discussion  
>>>>  thread:
>>>>
>>>> It would be worth using the  best of both disciplines, especially  
>>>>  for
>>>>
>>>  those
>>>
>>>> who offer any kind of landscaping  services, where does landscape
>>>> architecture and related  subfields end and permaculture begin or  
>>>>  vice
>>>>
>>>  versa
>>>
>>>> or how to combine the best of both  to practice permaculture and
>>>> eco-landscape architecture to  the max. The disciplines are very  
>>>>  different
>>>>
>>>  in
>>>
>>>> obvious ways, i.e. certified, bondable  industrial landscape plans  
>>>> and  on
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>  other hand permaculture designs to implement that work as well as   
>>>> their
>>>> landscape counterpart in every  way, especially being aesthetically
>>>>
>>>  pleasing
>>>
>>>> and spiritually rewarding  (Japanese landscapes, post-Colonial and  
>>>>  Country
>>>> Life Movement English cottage  gardens).
>>>>
>>>> For those offering services  and are looking for substantial jobs  
>>>>  for
>>>> clients who can afford them I would imagine there  would be as many
>>>> customers for permaculture site design  and implementation as  
>>>> there  would
>>>>
>>>  be
>>>
>>>> for landscape design and installation.  I hear from many  
>>>>  permaculturists
>>>> getting involved in the consultation and  design field
>>>> that they have found many wealthy clients who  invest in raw land  
>>>> and want
>>>> to  turn it into a permaculture demo site. The key phrase there  is
>>>> "permaculture demonstration site".
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  permaculture mailing list
>>>>  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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>>>>  site:https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture  searchstring
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun,  15 Aug 2010 23:58:12 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."  <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
> To: permaculture  <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture]  permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 19
> Message-ID:  <4C68B754.2080807@bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 8/15/2010 5:01 AM, A  Sampson-Kelly wrote:
>> I wonder why my recent post didn't get into  the discussion. any help?
>
> It did as this one did. Good idea  not to send a complete digest's  
> worth
> of text in a  reply like this if it can be avoided, though, if at all
> possible. Tnx.  that was a lot of stuff that went out to about 950
> people. If you send  email to permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> and you are subscribed the  post will always end up here.
> Tnx again.
>  LL
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>  Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:17:19 +0200
> From: steve  read <permaculturefr@free.fr>
> To: permaculture  <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: [permaculture]  Designing a Movement
> Message-ID:  <4C68BBCF.1030602@free.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> The 72 hr course is as far  as I'm concerned an introduction to
> permaculture and far from bein the  basis for an instant career, unless
> as is sometimes the case someone  has already loads on board.
>
> An advantage of the teaching teams  is that apprentices are exposedd to
> each others areas of expertise and  are also under the guidance of an
> experienced  permaculteur.
>
> I never felt in any case that the the Aus list  of 'accreited  
> designers'
> was very effective, nor the  Brit list where designers of 20 years +
> experience seem simply lumped  together with neophytes.
>
> I would be supportive of a  distributed nodal form of quality control.
> also here we have continued  the tradition expounded by Mollison that
> people who have completed a  PDC can participate in other PDC's just
> paying for their board and  lodging, this also helps quality ccontrol  
> as
> they then  give feedback on the courses run by various teachers, we
> intend to  publish thses feedbacks on the UPP website.
>
> Steve  Read
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon,  16 Aug 2010 08:38:59 -0600
> From: Toby Hemenway  <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> To: permaculture  <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture]  Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of
>   whatever)
>  Message-ID:  <58DFBB93-6334-48BE-A16F-4AE93C385BBB@patternliteracy.com>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> rafter  wrote:
>
>> Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would  be bad for the  
>> movement.
>
> I think this gets  to one of the central confusions of this  
> discussion, and why at  times we are talking past each other (and  
> BTW, I know someone  who taught a PDC for white ideologists, who told  
> me that a lot  of important insights came out--for the instructor as  
>  well).
>
> I think we fall into two camps: those who view  permaculture as a  
> movement, and those who view it as a design  approach. Of course,  
> most of us--myself included--hold portions  of both views, but I  
> think one will predominate in each  person.
>
> If you think of Pc as a movement, then we are  activists who are  
> trying to transform people's view of the  world, and we need everyone  
> to see it our way. We are right.  Permaculture is then a worldview,  
> an ideology of sorts, and  people need to do it our way, or the wrong  
> side will win. And  our ideology needs to remain pure and  
> uncorrupted.  If the  wrong people infiltrate us, permaculture will  
> become tainted,  ruined, and it will turn into something we don't  
> want. You are  either following it or not; you're with us or against  
> us, and  if you are against us, you need to be transformed.You can  
> see  that I don't like the idea of Pc being a movement, even though  
>  I'm often caught up in its evangelical qualities. And it's not a big   
> step from being a movement to being a cult, which some accuse   
> permaculture of being. Some of the arguments made here are  almost  
> cult-like: we have secret knowledge that needs to be  kept from the  
> army or they will do harm with  it.
>
> Or the other view: If permaculture is a design approach,  then at its  
> essence it is a set of tools for Earth- and  people-care that is not  
> dependent on belief or ideology. It  can't be corrupted because its  
> use either does or doesn't  follow the ethics and principles, and it  
> stops being  permaculture when those are not being adhered to. Or at  
> least  we can say it is a poor or incomplete use of permaculture. A  
>  person is either a good designer or a poor one. You use the  
>  principles in your work or you don't. You use ecological and social   
> metrics to assess whether you've been successful: As  biodiversity  
> up? Are people healthy? This puts the  responsibility on the user,  
> and not on permaculture as a  movement that may be corrupted by bad  
> people.
>
>  Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful here: We don't DO permaculture, we   
> USE permaculture in what we do. Activists in a movement do   
> permaculture. Designers use permaculture in what they do. If  the  
> army uses permaculture, it will result in Earth care and  people  
> care. If it doesn't have that result, then they aren't  using  
> permaculture; they are ideologists applying  capitalist/corporate  
> ideology to yet another tool they have  made poor use of. If we don't  
> teach them permaculture, there is  no chance of them doing the good  
> it can do. It cannot make them  worse, in my view. It will either be  
> abandoned by them, or it  will make them good designers of healthy  
>  systems.
>
> Again, I think "go where you are invited" applies. I  have no  
> intention of trying to transform the army with  permaculture: that's  
> ideology.  But if they come to me to  ask how they can use  
> permaculture to have ecologically and  socially successful and sound  
> projects, I'll be there. The  student must be ready for the teacher,  
> or there will be no  learning.
>
> And incidentally, I've really appreciated what  Rafter and manyy  
> others have written here, especially the  Rafter/Scott dialog. Thanks  
> for a thought provoking  thread.
>
> And, Cory and all: Permaculture is already being  taught in over 25  
> universities in the US alone, at last  count.
>
> And: I absolutely approve, as Kevin suggested, of  making the ethics,  
> principles, and curriculum much clearer and  less subject to wild  
> interpretations. Hence the need for  organizations that link  
> permaculturists  together,
>
> Toby
>  http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2010, at  2:55 PM, rafter sass wrote:
>
>  ------------------------------
>
>  _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing  list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>  End of permaculture Digest, Vol 91, Issue 27
>  ********************************************

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