permaculture

[jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>]

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said: Eat The Rich!

> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 10:11:13 -0700
> From: slowfoodguy@yahoo.com
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> 
> Fine for darkest Alaska, but 7 billion of us, where will we go when we move 
> to get out of each other's way?  Isn't a pending population crash implied 
> by this very train of thought?
>  
> Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
> -Chinese proverb
>  
> 
> --- On Fri, 5/7/10, jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 5:06 PM
> 
> 
> 
> My coldest winter in Alasak saw forty days in which the temperature never 
> rose above minus ten degrees fahrenheit, and I hand-cut all my firewood for 
> heating and cooking. A person doesn't have to be of the pre-euro-conquest 
> indigenous group for an area in order to survive in harmony with Nature, 
> just willing to learn from Nature and our ancestors (geographical or 
> otherwise) and be content with simple entertainments, and willing to spend 
> a lot of contemplative time. Eat what is local, use what is local, all in 
> moderation. If you find that you have more neighbors than a local ecosystem 
> can sustain, then either move or get some of them to move, in order to 
> lower everyone's demands on that area's resources. 
> 
> > From: fdnokes@hotmail.com
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 09:45:05 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> > 
> > two comments:
> > *the question does not suggest that the pop. excess is in the 3rd world
> > *the way of life you describe is, unfortunately, become less available 
> > within the 3rd world.
> > 
> > ALL these comments are very interesting to read, and glean references 
> > from.
> > For sake of clarity wish to reveal where the question came from.
> > I used to live in Winnipeg, affectionately known as Winterpeg.
> > One fall, I suddenly became shockingly conscious of how dependent on fuel 
> > we 
> > were to survive. The winter temps are extremely cold.  It just suddenly 
> > hit 
> > me how short our time line was without the fuel to heat our homes. There 
> > are 
> > many days when frostbite occurs within minutes and less of exposure to 
> > the 
> > windchill.
> > As it happened, that was the year that the ice storms occurred, thrusting 
> > Quebec and other neighbouring regions into crisis.
> > So, the question could also be approached from this angle.
> > Yes, the Inuit have developed an amazing lifestyle to cope with the 
> > Arctic, 
> > and yes, that way of life is fast fading, bringing with its fade, huge 
> > addiction issues...
> > I am the creature that I am. Brought up amidst the culture I was brought 
> > up 
> > in.
> > 
> > So, my question was not coming from a need to discuss consumption, which 
> > has 
> > been 'done' quite a bit lately everywhere we look. But, to introduce a 
> > different topic: that of suitability of varying geographies for different 
> > human life forms.
> > Where I come from, people did not used to stay in one place. When the 
> > weather changed, they moved.
> > 
> > hope this helps,
> > frances
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "Tripp Tibbetts" <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
> > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 9:33 AM
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> > 
> > > I'm going to add my name to this bandwagon.  Not that I specifically 
> > > disagree with Toby's numbers, but I do agree that the real rhino in the 
> > > playpen is first world consumption, not third world population.  A 
> > > wealthy 
> > > elite on a yacht in the Med burns more energy in an hour than whole 
> > > villages do in a year.  Besides, "third world" numbers have only grown 
> > > as 
> > > a response to "first world" subsidies.  A woman in Lesotho could 
> > > probably 
> > > turn an extra pound of rice and a chicken per week into another child. 
> > > Her counterpart in Portland, OR, would scrape it off her plate into the 
> > > garbage, or feed it to a Schnauzer we probably don't need to be 
> > > supporting 
> > > either.
> > >
> > > I foraged half a peck of mulberries this morning around town, which is 
> > > obviously more sustainable than buying them from a grocer, but I did it 
> > > in 
> > > my Camry, then washed them in a nice cast-iron enamel sink with 
> > > pressurized city water with an electric fan blowing cool air through my 
> > > 1000 s.f. house.  The same woman in Lesotho would just walk to the tree 
> > > and eat the berries, and bring some home to her mud and thatch house in 
> > > a 
> > > cloth for her children.
> > >
> > > It's really not the same thing at all, is it?
> > >
> > > Tripp
> > >
> > >
> > > The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
> > > -Chinese proverb
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 4:07 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Is it that there are too many, or that those in "developed" countries 
> > > take 
> > > such a huge portion of the resources per capita. Until recently, third 
> > > worlders, where population is so often cited (by privileged people of 
> > > european descent) as a problem, were content and effective at feeding 
> > > themselves with simple tools and technologies. The real change came 
> > > when 
> > > the privileged classes colonized (enslaved) the third world to use 
> > > their 
> > > resources and labor to support their own creature comforts and inflated 
> > > lifestyles. We're still doing it, and have tantalized the third world 
> > > with 
> > > enough of our toxic toys that some are willing to participate in or are 
> > > entrapped in a desperate attempt to gain material goods.
> > > Yet, the privileged classes still jet around the world, buy new 
> > > computers, 
> > > eat food grown far away, and sit atop their tractors while pretending 
> > > to 
> > > do good for the third world. Reminds me of the missionaries.
> > >> From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> > >> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 05:50:18 -0700
> > >> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> > >>
> > >> On May 6, 2010, at 11:54 AM, <fdnokes@hotmail.com> 
> > >> <fdnokes@hotmail.com> 
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > Do you think we have overstepped the bounds of what is habitable 
> > >> > space 
> > >> > on
> > >> > earth?
> > >> > Are we trying to live in too many places that are not supportive 
> > >> > enough 
> > >> > of
> > >> > life?
> > >>
> > >> No. But the question doesn't get to the real issue. 10,000 years ago 
> > >> there were humans in nearly all of the places that we inhabit now 
> > >> (Antarctica being the main exception). Some of the most fragile places 
> > >> on 
> > >> the planet--the Oz bush, the Kalahari--have had humans in them for 
> > >> 40,000 
> > >> years or more.
> > >>
> > >> The problem is not where we are, it's how many. There are just far, 
> > >> far 
> > >> too many of us in all of those places. Following William Catton in the 
> > >> 1980s classic "Overshoot," I'd say the human carrying capacity of the 
> > >> planet is 500 million people living carelessly (so to speak) or 1-2 
> > >> billion living very carefully. Since I don't think we are capable of 
> > >> living carefully, at some point we'll reach the lower number.
> > >>
> > >> Toby
> > >> http://patternliteracy.com
> > >>
> > >>
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> > >
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