permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

I'm going to add my name to this bandwagon.  Not that I specifically disagree 
with Toby's numbers, but I do agree that the real rhino in the playpen is 
first world consumption, not third world population.  A wealthy elite on a 
yacht in the Med burns more energy in an hour than whole villages do in a 
year.  Besides, "third world" numbers have only grown as a response to "first 
world" subsidies.  A woman in Lesotho could probably turn an extra pound of 
rice and a chicken per week into another child.  Her counterpart in Portland, 
OR, would scrape it off her plate into the garbage, or feed it to a Schnauzer 
we probably don't need to be supporting either.
 
I foraged half a peck of mulberries this morning around town, which is 
obviously more sustainable than buying them from a grocer, but I did it in my 
Camry, then washed them in a nice cast-iron enamel sink with pressurized city 
water with an electric fan blowing cool air through my 1000 s.f. house.  The 
same woman in Lesotho would just walk to the tree and eat the berries, and 
bring some home to her mud and thatch house in a cloth for her children.
 
It's really not the same thing at all, is it?

Tripp


The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Fri, 5/7/10, jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com> wrote:


From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 4:07 PM



Is it that there are too many, or that those in "developed" countries take 
such a huge portion of the resources per capita. Until recently, third 
worlders, where population is so often cited (by privileged people of 
european descent) as a problem, were content and effective at feeding 
themselves with simple tools and technologies. The real change came when the 
privileged classes colonized (enslaved) the third world to use their 
resources and labor to support their own creature comforts and inflated 
lifestyles. We're still doing it, and have tantalized the third world with 
enough of our toxic toys that some are willing to participate in or are 
entrapped in a desperate attempt to gain material goods.
Yet, the privileged classes still jet around the world, buy new computers, 
eat food grown far away, and sit atop their tractors while pretending to do 
good for the third world. Reminds me of the missionaries.
> From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 05:50:18 -0700
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> 
> On May 6, 2010, at 11:54 AM, <fdnokes@hotmail.com> <fdnokes@hotmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Do you think we have overstepped the bounds of what is habitable space on 
> > earth?
> > Are we trying to live in too many places that are not supportive enough 
> > of 
> > life?
> 
> No. But the question doesn't get to the real issue. 10,000 years ago there 
> were humans in nearly all of the places that we inhabit now (Antarctica 
> being the main exception). Some of the most fragile places on the 
> planet--the Oz bush, the Kalahari--have had humans in them for 40,000 years 
> or more. 
> 
> The problem is not where we are, it's how many. There are just far, far too 
> many of us in all of those places. Following William Catton in the 1980s 
> classic "Overshoot," I'd say the human carrying capacity of the planet is 
> 500 million people living carelessly (so to speak) or 1-2 billion living 
> very carefully. Since I don't think we are capable of living carefully, at 
> some point we'll reach the lower number. 
> 
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> More information:
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> permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums 
> And: http://www.richsoil.com
                          
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>From fdnokes@hotmail.com  Fri May  7 12:45:10 2010
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
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two comments:
*the question does not suggest that the pop. excess is in the 3rd world
*the way of life you describe is, unfortunately, become less available
within the 3rd world.

ALL these comments are very interesting to read, and glean references from.
For sake of clarity wish to reveal where the question came from.
I used to live in Winnipeg, affectionately known as Winterpeg.
One fall, I suddenly became shockingly conscious of how dependent on fuel we
were to survive. The winter temps are extremely cold.  It just suddenly hit
me how short our time line was without the fuel to heat our homes. There are
many days when frostbite occurs within minutes and less of exposure to the
windchill.
As it happened, that was the year that the ice storms occurred, thrusting
Quebec and other neighbouring regions into crisis.
So, the question could also be approached from this angle.
Yes, the Inuit have developed an amazing lifestyle to cope with the Arctic,
and yes, that way of life is fast fading, bringing with its fade, huge
addiction issues...
I am the creature that I am. Brought up amidst the culture I was brought up
in.

So, my question was not coming from a need to discuss consumption, which has
been 'done' quite a bit lately everywhere we look. But, to introduce a
different topic: that of suitability of varying geographies for different
human life forms.
Where I come from, people did not used to stay in one place. When the
weather changed, they moved.

hope this helps,
frances



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tripp Tibbetts" <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 9:33 AM
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut

> I'm going to add my name to this bandwagon.  Not that I specifically
> disagree with Toby's numbers, but I do agree that the real rhino in the
> playpen is first world consumption, not third world population.  A wealthy
> elite on a yacht in the Med burns more energy in an hour than whole
> villages do in a year.  Besides, "third world" numbers have only grown as
> a response to "first world" subsidies.  A woman in Lesotho could probably
> turn an extra pound of rice and a chicken per week into another child.
> Her counterpart in Portland, OR, would scrape it off her plate into the
> garbage, or feed it to a Schnauzer we probably don't need to be supporting
> either.
>
> I foraged half a peck of mulberries this morning around town, which is
> obviously more sustainable than buying them from a grocer, but I did it in
> my Camry, then washed them in a nice cast-iron enamel sink with
> pressurized city water with an electric fan blowing cool air through my
> 1000 s.f. house.  The same woman in Lesotho would just walk to the tree
> and eat the berries, and bring some home to her mud and thatch house in a
> cloth for her children.
>
> It's really not the same thing at all, is it?
>
> Tripp
>
>
> The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
> -Chinese proverb
>
>
> --- On Fri, 5/7/10, jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 4:07 PM
>
>
>
> Is it that there are too many, or that those in "developed" countries take
> such a huge portion of the resources per capita. Until recently, third
> worlders, where population is so often cited (by privileged people of
> european descent) as a problem, were content and effective at feeding
> themselves with simple tools and technologies. The real change came when
> the privileged classes colonized (enslaved) the third world to use their
> resources and labor to support their own creature comforts and inflated
> lifestyles. We're still doing it, and have tantalized the third world with
> enough of our toxic toys that some are willing to participate in or are
> entrapped in a desperate attempt to gain material goods.
> Yet, the privileged classes still jet around the world, buy new computers,
> eat food grown far away, and sit atop their tractors while pretending to
> do good for the third world. Reminds me of the missionaries.
>> From: toby@patternliteracy.com
>> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 05:50:18 -0700
>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
>>
>> On May 6, 2010, at 11:54 AM, <fdnokes@hotmail.com> <fdnokes@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Do you think we have overstepped the bounds of what is habitable space
>> > on
>> > earth?
>> > Are we trying to live in too many places that are not supportive enough
>> > of
>> > life?
>>
>> No. But the question doesn't get to the real issue. 10,000 years ago
>> there were humans in nearly all of the places that we inhabit now
>> (Antarctica being the main exception). Some of the most fragile places on
>> the planet--the Oz bush, the Kalahari--have had humans in them for 40,000
>> years or more.
>>
>> The problem is not where we are, it's how many. There are just far, far
>> too many of us in all of those places. Following William Catton in the
>> 1980s classic "Overshoot," I'd say the human carrying capacity of the
>> planet is 500 million people living carelessly (so to speak) or 1-2
>> billion living very carefully. Since I don't think we are capable of
>> living carefully, at some point we'll reach the lower number.
>>
>> Toby
>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> More information:
>> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
>> permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>> And: http://www.richsoil.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> More information:
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> And: http://www.richsoil.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> More information:
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> And: http://www.richsoil.com
>