permaculture

[Tripp Tibbetts <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>]

Two questions of my own:
If there is a "meaning of life", could it be anything other than procreation, 
biologically speaking?  Making the decision not to have a child is admirable, 
but for people who claim to be more in touch with Nature than the average 
bear, isn't childlessness the most alien of concepts?
 
And two, do you, Scott Pittman, think we will actually ever reach 9 billion?  
If the historical carrying capacity is about a billion humans, shouldn't our 
overshoot be nearly complete?

Agreed on the tandem population/consumption problem by the way,
Tripp


The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
-Chinese proverb
 

--- On Fri, 5/7/10, Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:


From: Scott Pittman <scott@permaculture.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 5:13 PM


It is not a question of either less population or less consumption, it is
both!  We are now at 6.5 billion and climbing to 9 billion by 2050 so it
really doesn't matter who is making all the babies we are way past the
Earth's carrying capacity!  And of course we have to take a deep, deep
breath and totally change our first world life style.  This of course isn't
helped by people like Al Gore offering solutions like "change your light
bulbs"!!

Looking back 500 hundred years to pre-colonization for a solution doesn't
help either.  Why not go back 2000 years to the colonization of Europe by
Romans?


Scott Pittman
Director
Permaculture Institute
www.permaculture.org

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
fdnokes@hotmail.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 10:45 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut

two comments:
*the question does not suggest that the pop. excess is in the 3rd world
*the way of life you describe is, unfortunately, become less available 
within the 3rd world.

ALL these comments are very interesting to read, and glean references from.
For sake of clarity wish to reveal where the question came from.
I used to live in Winnipeg, affectionately known as Winterpeg.
One fall, I suddenly became shockingly conscious of how dependent on fuel we

were to survive. The winter temps are extremely cold.  It just suddenly hit 
me how short our time line was without the fuel to heat our homes. There are

many days when frostbite occurs within minutes and less of exposure to the 
windchill.
As it happened, that was the year that the ice storms occurred, thrusting 
Quebec and other neighbouring regions into crisis.
So, the question could also be approached from this angle.
Yes, the Inuit have developed an amazing lifestyle to cope with the Arctic, 
and yes, that way of life is fast fading, bringing with its fade, huge 
addiction issues...
I am the creature that I am. Brought up amidst the culture I was brought up 
in.

So, my question was not coming from a need to discuss consumption, which has

been 'done' quite a bit lately everywhere we look. But, to introduce a 
different topic: that of suitability of varying geographies for different 
human life forms.
Where I come from, people did not used to stay in one place. When the 
weather changed, they moved.

hope this helps,
frances



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tripp Tibbetts" <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 9:33 AM
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut

> I'm going to add my name to this bandwagon.  Not that I specifically 
> disagree with Toby's numbers, but I do agree that the real rhino in the 
> playpen is first world consumption, not third world population.  A wealthy

> elite on a yacht in the Med burns more energy in an hour than whole 
> villages do in a year.  Besides, "third world" numbers have only grown as 
> a response to "first world" subsidies.  A woman in Lesotho could probably 
> turn an extra pound of rice and a chicken per week into another child. 
> Her counterpart in Portland, OR, would scrape it off her plate into the 
> garbage, or feed it to a Schnauzer we probably don't need to be supporting

> either.
>
> I foraged half a peck of mulberries this morning around town, which is 
> obviously more sustainable than buying them from a grocer, but I did it in

> my Camry, then washed them in a nice cast-iron enamel sink with 
> pressurized city water with an electric fan blowing cool air through my 
> 1000 s.f. house.  The same woman in Lesotho would just walk to the tree 
> and eat the berries, and bring some home to her mud and thatch house in a 
> cloth for her children.
>
> It's really not the same thing at all, is it?
>
> Tripp
>
>
> The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
> -Chinese proverb
>
>
> --- On Fri, 5/7/10, jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 4:07 PM
>
>
>
> Is it that there are too many, or that those in "developed" countries take

> such a huge portion of the resources per capita. Until recently, third 
> worlders, where population is so often cited (by privileged people of 
> european descent) as a problem, were content and effective at feeding 
> themselves with simple tools and technologies. The real change came when 
> the privileged classes colonized (enslaved) the third world to use their 
> resources and labor to support their own creature comforts and inflated 
> lifestyles. We're still doing it, and have tantalized the third world with

> enough of our toxic toys that some are willing to participate in or are 
> entrapped in a desperate attempt to gain material goods.
> Yet, the privileged classes still jet around the world, buy new computers,

> eat food grown far away, and sit atop their tractors while pretending to 
> do good for the third world. Reminds me of the missionaries.
>> From: toby@patternliteracy.com
>> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 05:50:18 -0700
>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
>>
>> On May 6, 2010, at 11:54 AM, <fdnokes@hotmail.com> <fdnokes@hotmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Do you think we have overstepped the bounds of what is habitable space 
>> > on
>> > earth?
>> > Are we trying to live in too many places that are not supportive enough

>> > of
>> > life?
>>
>> No. But the question doesn't get to the real issue. 10,000 years ago 
>> there were humans in nearly all of the places that we inhabit now 
>> (Antarctica being the main exception). Some of the most fragile places on

>> the planet--the Oz bush, the Kalahari--have had humans in them for 40,000

>> years or more.
>>
>> The problem is not where we are, it's how many. There are just far, far 
>> too many of us in all of those places. Following William Catton in the 
>> 1980s classic "Overshoot," I'd say the human carrying capacity of the 
>> planet is 500 million people living carelessly (so to speak) or 1-2 
>> billion living very carefully. Since I don't think we are capable of 
>> living carefully, at some point we'll reach the lower number.
>>
>> Toby
>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> More information:
>> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
>> permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>> And: http://www.richsoil.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
>
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>
>
>
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_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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>From harvestcircle@hotmail.com  Fri May  7 13:26:20 2010
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Good idea, but let's go back to where the consumption began to get out of 
hand....quit depending on grain, begin to learn how to be a low-tech 
hunter-gatherer, with tiny horticultural plots for some variety. Or, a very 
early form of nomadic herding, tiny herds of goats and sheep, moved daily to 
prevent over-use of any one place. Nomads had a really wide view of the world 
since they saw intimately so many places, and saw how ecosystems and species 
interact across a wide zone.

> From: scott@permaculture.org
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:13:04 -0600
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> 
> It is not a question of either less population or less consumption, it is
> both!  We are now at 6.5 billion and climbing to 9 billion by 2050 so it
> really doesn't matter who is making all the babies we are way past the
> Earth's carrying capacity!  And of course we have to take a deep, deep
> breath and totally change our first world life style.  This of course isn't
> helped by people like Al Gore offering solutions like "change your light
> bulbs"!!
> 
> Looking back 500 hundred years to pre-colonization for a solution doesn't
> help either.  Why not go back 2000 years to the colonization of Europe by
> Romans?
> 
> 
> Scott Pittman
> Director
> Permaculture Institute
> www.permaculture.org
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> fdnokes@hotmail.com
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 10:45 AM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> 
> two comments:
> *the question does not suggest that the pop. excess is in the 3rd world
> *the way of life you describe is, unfortunately, become less available 
> within the 3rd world.
> 
> ALL these comments are very interesting to read, and glean references from.
> For sake of clarity wish to reveal where the question came from.
> I used to live in Winnipeg, affectionately known as Winterpeg.
> One fall, I suddenly became shockingly conscious of how dependent on fuel we
> 
> were to survive. The winter temps are extremely cold.  It just suddenly hit 
> me how short our time line was without the fuel to heat our homes. There are
> 
> many days when frostbite occurs within minutes and less of exposure to the 
> windchill.
> As it happened, that was the year that the ice storms occurred, thrusting 
> Quebec and other neighbouring regions into crisis.
> So, the question could also be approached from this angle.
> Yes, the Inuit have developed an amazing lifestyle to cope with the Arctic, 
> and yes, that way of life is fast fading, bringing with its fade, huge 
> addiction issues...
> I am the creature that I am. Brought up amidst the culture I was brought up 
> in.
> 
> So, my question was not coming from a need to discuss consumption, which has
> 
> been 'done' quite a bit lately everywhere we look. But, to introduce a 
> different topic: that of suitability of varying geographies for different 
> human life forms.
> Where I come from, people did not used to stay in one place. When the 
> weather changed, they moved.
> 
> hope this helps,
> frances
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Tripp Tibbetts" <slowfoodguy@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 9:33 AM
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> 
> > I'm going to add my name to this bandwagon.  Not that I specifically 
> > disagree with Toby's numbers, but I do agree that the real rhino in the 
> > playpen is first world consumption, not third world population.  A wealthy
> 
> > elite on a yacht in the Med burns more energy in an hour than whole 
> > villages do in a year.  Besides, "third world" numbers have only grown as 
> > a response to "first world" subsidies.  A woman in Lesotho could probably 
> > turn an extra pound of rice and a chicken per week into another child. 
> > Her counterpart in Portland, OR, would scrape it off her plate into the 
> > garbage, or feed it to a Schnauzer we probably don't need to be supporting
> 
> > either.
> >
> > I foraged half a peck of mulberries this morning around town, which is 
> > obviously more sustainable than buying them from a grocer, but I did it in
> 
> > my Camry, then washed them in a nice cast-iron enamel sink with 
> > pressurized city water with an electric fan blowing cool air through my 
> > 1000 s.f. house.  The same woman in Lesotho would just walk to the tree 
> > and eat the berries, and bring some home to her mud and thatch house in a 
> > cloth for her children.
> >
> > It's really not the same thing at all, is it?
> >
> > Tripp
> >
> >
> > The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow.
> > -Chinese proverb
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 4:07 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Is it that there are too many, or that those in "developed" countries take
> 
> > such a huge portion of the resources per capita. Until recently, third 
> > worlders, where population is so often cited (by privileged people of 
> > european descent) as a problem, were content and effective at feeding 
> > themselves with simple tools and technologies. The real change came when 
> > the privileged classes colonized (enslaved) the third world to use their 
> > resources and labor to support their own creature comforts and inflated 
> > lifestyles. We're still doing it, and have tantalized the third world with
> 
> > enough of our toxic toys that some are willing to participate in or are 
> > entrapped in a desperate attempt to gain material goods.
> > Yet, the privileged classes still jet around the world, buy new computers,
> 
> > eat food grown far away, and sit atop their tractors while pretending to 
> > do good for the third world. Reminds me of the missionaries.
> >> From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> >> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 05:50:18 -0700
> >> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Overstep the bounds? was: From TruthOut
> >>
> >> On May 6, 2010, at 11:54 AM, <fdnokes@hotmail.com> <fdnokes@hotmail.com> 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Do you think we have overstepped the bounds of what is habitable space 
> >> > on
> >> > earth?
> >> > Are we trying to live in too many places that are not supportive enough
> 
> >> > of
> >> > life?
> >>
> >> No. But the question doesn't get to the real issue. 10,000 years ago 
> >> there were humans in nearly all of the places that we inhabit now 
> >> (Antarctica being the main exception). Some of the most fragile places on
> 
> >> the planet--the Oz bush, the Kalahari--have had humans in them for 40,000
> 
> >> years or more.
> >>
> >> The problem is not where we are, it's how many. There are just far, far 
> >> too many of us in all of those places. Following William Catton in the 
> >> 1980s classic "Overshoot," I'd say the human carrying capacity of the 
> >> planet is 500 million people living carelessly (so to speak) or 1-2 
> >> billion living very carefully. Since I don't think we are capable of 
> >> living carefully, at some point we'll reach the lower number.
> >>
> >> Toby
> >> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> More information:
> >> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> >> permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> >> And: http://www.richsoil.com
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
> >
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > More information:
> > http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> > permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > And: http://www.richsoil.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > More information:
> > http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> > permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> > And: http://www.richsoil.com
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> More information:
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums 
> And: http://www.richsoil.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> More information:
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums  http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums 
> And: http://www.richsoil.com
                                          
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