permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

sals, 

Who said permaculturists use roundup or manipulate genes? I didn't see 
anybody here say anything like that. Where are you getting your information? 

Cory

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, sals3 <sals3@cox.net> wrote:

> From: sals3 <sals3@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 8:58 PM
> I heard they use round up in
> permaculture now GMOs  the taking of a gene 
> from any living thing transgenic and changing the dna of
> life on earth not 
> knowing or caring what happens  as they can not
> control them.  I hate the 
> fact that I can plant organic sweet corn and thanks to
> these guys get GMO 
> insecticide corn.  some parts of permaculture I don't
> like .  still there is 
> a lot about permaculture I do
> like.   .  to me I see these gene
> jockeys 
> can't control their man made
> abominations.   .  that's the problem
> with 
> transgenic engineered lab made life the way I see it. 
> all this talk about 
> virus and natural gene mixing is not the same to me but
> that is the argument 
> they give us.  its almost natural or this happens in
> nature all the time. 
> to me that is bs most these genes would never mix in real
> life.. and they 
> cannot control these man made life forms .
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Cory Brennan" <cory8570@yahoo.com>
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
> 
> 
> The person who developed the microbes for microbetech is
> Hugh Muir, son of 
> the naturalist John Muir. He comes from his father's
> tradition of "do no 
> harm" to the natural world. Microbe remediation is similar
> to remediation by 
> fungi and works on the same principles. The microbes are
> not modified - they 
> are encased in organic solutions that help them stay in the
> system long 
> enough to gain a foothold and do their work. They are
> naturally occurring 
> microbes, that are hand picked because of the functions
> they wear in the 
> system, just like inoculants. Which is worse? A monocrop
> field that has been 
> robbed of almost all soil life and must be artificially
> force fed to grow 
> anything, or using microbes to start the process of a
> healthy system?
> 
> Why is it ok to bring fungi into an area but not
> microbes?  As Toby says, 
> microbes are constantly evolving.  They do well when
> there is a balance in 
> the system and mutually beneficial connection amongst many
> elements. When we 
> bring nitrogen fixer inoculants into a system, these are
> microbes brought in 
> from outside. When we import soil or organic material, we
> are bringing in 
> outside microbe systems that may have been altered by man's
> interference. 
> These things tend to sort themselves out in a healthy
> system, such as an 
> intact wetlands.
> 
> The best thing to do would probably be to go to one of the
> places microbe 
> remediation is used and see how the ecosystem is doing,
> years later. 
> Microbes cleaned up an almost totally toxic Sea of Japan
> and allowed the 
> fishing industry to survive. They have accomplished
> miracles in cleaning up 
> toxic waste in ecosystems when used with care and
> responsibility.
> 
> It seems that is the key, how responsible are the parties?
> These guys seem 
> very, very idealistic and ethical to me - they love the
> earth and want it to 
> survive with beauty. I am not a microbiologist or genetic
> expert, so have to 
> go with what I've seen, what I've thoughtfully observed,
> what I do know, and 
> some gut instinct.
> 
> Cory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Tue, 5/4/10, Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Ben Martin Horst <ben.martinhorst@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 7:45 PM
> > As a former geneticist, I'm sure you
> > would know far better than I, but is
> > there actually money available for exploring things
> like
> > petroleum-eating
> > microbes? There's a pretty narrow range of "benefits"
> that
> > have come out of
> > GM thus far -- at least in crop science -- and even
> those
> > few have only come
> > in areas where corporations like Monsanto and DuPont
> have
> > poured tens of
> > millions of dollars. My concern is that GM techniques
> are
> > costly enough to
> > implement that it's only the uber-rich and
> uber-powerful
> > (aka evil
> > corporations) who can wield these tools. At least
> that's my
> > impression. Is
> > it realistic to expect research funding for more
> benign
> > uses of GM
> > techniques? I'm not intimately aware of happenings in
> the
> > field -- maybe
> > this sort of thing is already happening?
> >
> > -Ben
> >
> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:07 PM, Toby Hemenway 
> > <toby@patternliteracy.com>wrote:
> >
> > > As a former geneticist, I want to point out that
> > nature transfers genes
> > > between species, between families, even between
> phyla
> > and kingdoms. It was
> > > viruses that taught geneticists how to do it;
> viruses
> > move genes between the
> > > most distantly related organisms with great
> frequency
> > and ease, making the
> > > genetically engineered tomato with a fish gene
> look
> > like child's play.
> > > Nature is far ahead of us in the breeding world,
> and
> > is doing things we can
> > > barely dream of.
> > >
> > > It makes no more sense to condemn genetic
> engineering
> > itself than it does
> > > to condemn a hammer or a computer. It's a tool.
> A
> > permaculturist doesn't
> > > rule out a tool simply because of its origin; if
> we
> > did we wouldn't use
> > > hammers, computers, or anything else that's a
> product
> > of an unsustainable
> > > culture. The techniques of genetic modification
> are
> > not evil; it's the
> > > godawful stupid things they do with them that are
> the
> > evil. If we can talk
> > > about using technical solutions like hair mats
> and
> > mycelium to clean up oil
> > > spills (with all their pluses and minuses), then
> we
> > ought to include GMO
> > > microbes that eat oil in the toolkit. None of
> them is
> > going to solve the oil
> > > problem, but while we work on the technical
> level, we
> > work on other levels
> > > too.
> > >
> > > My sense is that activism, even Jensen's violent
> kind,
> > isn't going to bring
> > > civilization down--and I like Derrick a lot, and
> I
> > speak as an activist. The
> > > elites are much better at violence than anyone
> else. I
> > think oil will just
> > > get too scarce, and the crash will solve a lot
> of
> > those problems. I just
> > > hope it happens soon enough.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > http://patternliteracy.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 4, 2010, at 4:50 PM, jamesdavid Sneed
> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps you can share your research sources
> > on each statement about the
> > > microbes so each of us can pursue that. Also,
> even if
> > an organism has NOT
> > > been genetically engineered as in splicing, a
> few
> > "non-gmo" breeding
> > > techniques would never occur in Nature without
> humans
> > forcing them to
> > > happen, and thus also bear dangerous potential.
> > > >> Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:59:18 -0700
> > > >> From: cory8570@yahoo.com
> > > >> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill -
> > solutions?
> > > >>
> > > >> Oil eating microbes die when the oil is
> gone.
> > The oil, on the other
> > > hand, sticks around in one form or other and
> keeps on
> > killing. They are now
> > > using toxic stuff that sinks it to the bottom of
> the
> > ocean. I guess out of
> > > sight, out of mind... The company I am most
> familiar
> > with uses only existing
> > > microbes, they are not GM at all.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cory
> > > >>
> > > >> --- On Mon, 5/3/10, jamesdavid Sneed
> <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> From: jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil
> spill -
> > solutions?
> > > >>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >>> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 2:13 PM
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Aren't a lot of those oil-eating
> microbes
> > genetically
> > > >>> modified? That would be cutting off
> our
> > nose to spite our
> > > >>> face.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 20:50:49
> -0700
> > > >>>> From: cory8570@yahoo.com
> > > >>>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil
> spill
> > - solutions?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I'm checking with a friend of
> mine
> > who creates microbe
> > > >>> formulas to see if he has one for
> this
> > problem. Some
> > > >>> microbes do eat oil, just need to
> assess
> > the entire process
> > > >>> and all waste products,
> consequences,
> > etc. Tailored,
> > > >>> cultured microbes might be best for
> this
> > job. Anybody know
> > > >>> of any other organizations that
> might be
> > able to handle
> > > >>> that? Application will definitely
> > be something to
> > > >>> solve.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Cory
> > > >>>>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> >
> 
> 
> 
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