permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

"I thought we were talking
about GMO life forms eating oil and when the oil is gone what else do they
eat ."

They are not GMO microbes and when the oil is gone they die. That is what 
happens to most microbes, algae, etc, when the fuel and environment they 
survive on is gone. That's why monocropping kills the life in the soil. You 
have to bring in microbes from outside the system, whether that is in manure, 
organic material, compost, etc, if you want any there. 

Did you ever see the presentation on peak oil where we are compared to algae 
that will reproduce until the one thing they eat is gone, and then they all 
die?  I think that's a good metaphor for our oil obsession. Are we smarter 
than algae or bacteria? Can we adapt and find other fuel to use? 

Bacteria are amazingly adaptable, and we have learned from them, but they do 
starve and die when the fuel they use to survive is gone, and they do seek a 
balance. It's true that they can jump to eating other things but most of them 
die before that happens. Think of a fatal illness that only humans can get. 
It can kill its host, but then it dies off en masse and maybe completely, 
unless it finds more human food. 

I seriously doubt microbes will be used on any type of large scale in this 
clean up. But perhaps they can help protect fragile wetlands and coastline 
and it is a tool that should be considered. 

We do need to get off oil completely and go to alternative fuels that don't 
harm the environment. They do exist and we know how to produce them now to 
create minimal harm or maybe even regenerate. 

Cory

--- On Wed, 5/5/10, sals3 <sals3@cox.net> wrote:

> From: sals3 <sals3@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 10:09 PM
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Toby Hemenway" <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
> 
> 
> > On May 5, 2010, at 3:43 PM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
> >
> >> If a person says that the ends justifies the
> means, or if they say that 
> >> gmo's may be acceptable, then they don't seem like
> a permaculturist.
> >
> > Hmm. Doesn't sound like you really read anything I
> wrote. You've put words 
> > in my mouth that I never said. Stop it; please learn
> to read without 
> > projecting your fears onto me.
> >
> > Can you entertain the idea that not every statement
> Monsanto makes is a 
> > lie? Yes, they are using those statements to justify
> doing stupid and 
> > destructive things, but that does not make them
> untrue. And if you are 
> > going to comment on the subject, you should learn
> something about it, like 
> > the difference between GE techniques and GMOs. I don't
> approve of GMO 
> > release; I never said I did. GE techniques, however,
> have been used to 
> > make cancer, blood disease, and arthritis medications
> that have saved or 
> > improved the lives of countless hundreds of thousands,
> and it's done 
> > without release of organisms. A number of my friends
> and family would be 
> > dead without them. If you can find one iota of
> ecological harm that's been 
> > done by the creation of those drugs, I'll gladly back
> right down.
> 
> 
> what does curing cancer have to do with microbes that eat
> oil . anyway I'm 
> glad we agree on the gmos release being bad. . sorry we
> misunderstood you . 
> gmo microbes to help with oil spill that is what I see in
> the subject line 
> so I can c how folks would think you were talking releasing
> gmos .  you 
> can't blame us for that.  and do the gene jockeys lie
> and Monsanto and the 
> Oil companies lie and deceive for money I would say yes.
> they are more 
> powerful than governments and the blood shed for oil is
> still going on. and 
> I think  I seen them lie and I have seen them not be
> able to control what 
> they release and not care.  If someone wants to shot
> GMO in their blood and 
> get rid of cancer and stop blood vessels from growing that
> is different than 
> what we are talking about , oil in the gulf and
> solutions.  I like your 
> writings and am grateful for your wisdom so sorry I thought
> we were talking 
> about GMO life forms eating oil and when the oil is gone
> what else do they 
> eat .  sure if I had cancer I may try these new drugs
> that stop the blood 
> supply to the cancer.  it may be better then radiation
> etc. but we are 
> talking about oil in the gulf and how man has killed the
> gulf and the life 
> in it for love of money and to stop the oil spill they may
> release something 
> worse.  I heard that the microbes that eat oil eat
> other things also.  I'm 
> talking about release of life forms not a shot in your
> blood stream that 
> only effect you.  but if you don't like GMOs like me
> good I glad because I 
> know how influential you are .  to me it just sounded
> like you were 
> defending them with all that bs about what happen three
> billions years ago. 
> hey every one is justified in their own mines eye. 
> when I came on this 
> earth monkeys were monkesy and are still monkeys and man is
> man and you can 
> have all that evolutionary bs. I know what was here when I
> got here.   to me 
> they use that bs to justfy their  wickness they use
> your arguments about how 
> its just another way to breed crossing what ever with what
> ever.  its wicked 
> to me anyway sorry for the misunderstanding.even those that
> make the cancer 
> stopping drugs are getting paid and =those with the money
> live and those 
> without die what is it about 100000 a pill .  they
> charge a lot for the life 
> they are selling you.  some only live a few weeks
> longer but in the end 
> folks will give all their money and when the money runs out
> the treatment 
> stops.  hehe.  plus I feel they probalby give us
> the cancer with their 
> science .  the subject was oil spills.that the subject
> not what someone says 
> happen first three billion years of
> life.   bs
> .
> > Back to the subject: There was a great article about a
> year ago in the NY 
> > Review of Books by Freeman Dyson that pointed out that
> horizontal gene 
> > transfer--the transfer of genes between wildly
> different organisms--was 
> > the main source of evolutionary change for most of
> life's existence. There 
> > was no such thing as a species for the ; no real
> barriers to gene 
> > exchange. The evolution of sex and the species barrier
> is relatively 
> > recent, only in existence for a small percentage of
> life's tenure, and 
> > only for a relative few organisms. Dyson went on to
> speculate that the 
> > advent of easy, available genetic engineering
> kits--like chemistry sets 
> > for kids--would mean the end of the brief window of
> individual species. 
> > Horizontal gene transfer would again be the norm, but
> this time directed 
> > by humans. I found that last a pretty frightening
> thought, but I 
> > appreciated his pointing out that horizontal gene
> transfer is the rule, 
> > not the exception.
> >
> > I just had the thought that maybe our fears of GMOs
> are similar to the 
> > largely groundless fears that the natives-only crowd
> have about exotic 
> > species: they'll take over; they'll ruin everything.
> Superweeds may be bad 
> > for farmers; who knows if they are harmful in any
> larger sense. I'm not 
> > sure that I'm ready to start thinking like that, but
> it's worth 
> > considering.
> >
> > Toby
> > http://patternliteracy.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 5, 2010, at 3:43 PM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> If a person says that the ends justifies the
> means, or if they say that 
> >> gmo's may be acceptable, then they don't seem like
> a permaculturist. The 
> >> refrain of "I am a geneticist" and that Nature
> does it anyways is 
> >> straight out of testimonyby Monsanto I've heard
> countless times at 
> >> hearings and in reviewing eis filings.
> >> Are even permaculture gurus subject to losing
> their focus?
> >>
> >>> From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> >>> Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:07:37 -0700
> >>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill -
> solutions?
> >>>
> >>> As a former geneticist, I want to point out
> that nature transfers genes 
> >>> between species, between families, even
> between phyla and kingdoms. It 
> >>> was viruses that taught geneticists how to do
> it; viruses move genes 
> >>> between the most distantly related organisms
> with great frequency and 
> >>> ease, making the genetically engineered tomato
> with a fish gene look 
> >>> like child's play. Nature is far ahead of us
> in the breeding world, and 
> >>> is doing things we can barely dream of.
> >>>
> >>> It makes no more sense to condemn genetic
> engineering itself than it 
> >>> does to condemn a hammer or a computer. It's a
> tool. A permaculturist 
> >>> doesn't rule out a tool simply because of its
> origin; if we did we 
> >>> wouldn't use hammers, computers, or anything
> else that's a product of an 
> >>> unsustainable culture. The techniques of
> genetic modification are not 
> >>> evil; it's the godawful stupid things they do
> with them that are the 
> >>> evil. If we can talk about using technical
> solutions like hair mats and 
> >>> mycelium to clean up oil spills (with all
> their pluses and minuses), 
> >>> then we ought to include GMO microbes that eat
> oil in the toolkit. None 
> >>> of them is going to solve the oil problem, but
> while we work on the 
> >>> technical level, we work on other levels too.
> >>>
> >>> My sense is that activism, even Jensen's
> violent kind, isn't going to 
> >>> bring civilization down--and I like Derrick a
> lot, and I speak as an 
> >>> activist. The elites are much better at
> violence than anyone else. I 
> >>> think oil will just get too scarce, and the
> crash will solve a lot of 
> >>> those problems. I just hope it happens soon
> enough.
> >>>
> >>> Toby
> >>> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >
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