permaculture

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Toby Hemenway" <toby@patternliteracy.com>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?


> On May 5, 2010, at 3:43 PM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
>
> > If a person says that the ends justifies the means, or if they say that 
> > gmo's may be acceptable, then they don't seem like a permaculturist.
>
> Hmm. Doesn't sound like you really read anything I wrote. You've put words 
> in my mouth that I never said. Stop it; please learn to read without 
> projecting your fears onto me.
>
> Can you entertain the idea that not every statement Monsanto makes is a 
> lie? Yes, they are using those statements to justify doing stupid and 
> destructive things, but that does not make them untrue. And if you are 
> going to comment on the subject, you should learn something about it, like 
> the difference between GE techniques and GMOs. I don't approve of GMO 
> release; I never said I did. GE techniques, however, have been used to 
> make cancer, blood disease, and arthritis medications that have saved or 
> improved the lives of countless hundreds of thousands, and it's done 
> without release of organisms. A number of my friends and family would be 
> dead without them. If you can find one iota of ecological harm that's been 
> done by the creation of those drugs, I'll gladly back right down.


what does curing cancer have to do with microbes that eat oil . anyway I'm 
glad we agree on the gmos release being bad. . sorry we misunderstood you . 
gmo microbes to help with oil spill that is what I see in the subject line 
so I can c how folks would think you were talking releasing gmos .  you 
can't blame us for that.  and do the gene jockeys lie and Monsanto and the 
Oil companies lie and deceive for money I would say yes. they are more 
powerful than governments and the blood shed for oil is still going on. and 
I think  I seen them lie and I have seen them not be able to control what 
they release and not care.  If someone wants to shot GMO in their blood and 
get rid of cancer and stop blood vessels from growing that is different than 
what we are talking about , oil in the gulf and solutions.  I like your 
writings and am grateful for your wisdom so sorry I thought we were talking 
about GMO life forms eating oil and when the oil is gone what else do they 
eat .  sure if I had cancer I may try these new drugs that stop the blood 
supply to the cancer.  it may be better then radiation etc. but we are 
talking about oil in the gulf and how man has killed the gulf and the life 
in it for love of money and to stop the oil spill they may release something 
worse.  I heard that the microbes that eat oil eat other things also.  I'm 
talking about release of life forms not a shot in your blood stream that 
only effect you.  but if you don't like GMOs like me good I glad because I 
know how influential you are .  to me it just sounded like you were 
defending them with all that bs about what happen three billions years ago. 
hey every one is justified in their own mines eye.  when I came on this 
earth monkeys were monkesy and are still monkeys and man is man and you can 
have all that evolutionary bs. I know what was here when I got here.   to me 
they use that bs to justfy their  wickness they use your arguments about how 
its just another way to breed crossing what ever with what ever.  its wicked 
to me anyway sorry for the misunderstanding.even those that make the cancer 
stopping drugs are getting paid and =those with the money live and those 
without die what is it about 100000 a pill .  they charge a lot for the life 
they are selling you.  some only live a few weeks longer but in the end 
folks will give all their money and when the money runs out the treatment 
stops.  hehe.  plus I feel they probalby give us the cancer with their 
science .  the subject was oil spills.that the subject not what someone says 
happen first three billion years of life.   bs
.
> Back to the subject: There was a great article about a year ago in the NY 
> Review of Books by Freeman Dyson that pointed out that horizontal gene 
> transfer--the transfer of genes between wildly different organisms--was 
> the main source of evolutionary change for most of life's existence. There 
> was no such thing as a species for the ; no real barriers to gene 
> exchange. The evolution of sex and the species barrier is relatively 
> recent, only in existence for a small percentage of life's tenure, and 
> only for a relative few organisms. Dyson went on to speculate that the 
> advent of easy, available genetic engineering kits--like chemistry sets 
> for kids--would mean the end of the brief window of individual species. 
> Horizontal gene transfer would again be the norm, but this time directed 
> by humans. I found that last a pretty frightening thought, but I 
> appreciated his pointing out that horizontal gene transfer is the rule, 
> not the exception.
>
> I just had the thought that maybe our fears of GMOs are similar to the 
> largely groundless fears that the natives-only crowd have about exotic 
> species: they'll take over; they'll ruin everything. Superweeds may be bad 
> for farmers; who knows if they are harmful in any larger sense. I'm not 
> sure that I'm ready to start thinking like that, but it's worth 
> considering.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
> On May 5, 2010, at 3:43 PM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
>
> > If a person says that the ends justifies the means, or if they say that 
> > gmo's may be acceptable, then they don't seem like a permaculturist. The 
> > refrain of "I am a geneticist" and that Nature does it anyways is 
> > straight out of testimonyby Monsanto I've heard countless times at 
> > hearings and in reviewing eis filings.
> > Are even permaculture gurus subject to losing their focus?
> >
> > > From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> > > Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:07:37 -0700
> > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
> > >
> > > As a former geneticist, I want to point out that nature transfers genes 
> > > between species, between families, even between phyla and kingdoms. It 
> > > was viruses that taught geneticists how to do it; viruses move genes 
> > > between the most distantly related organisms with great frequency and 
> > > ease, making the genetically engineered tomato with a fish gene look 
> > > like child's play. Nature is far ahead of us in the breeding world, and 
> > > is doing things we can barely dream of.
> > >
> > > It makes no more sense to condemn genetic engineering itself than it 
> > > does to condemn a hammer or a computer. It's a tool. A permaculturist 
> > > doesn't rule out a tool simply because of its origin; if we did we 
> > > wouldn't use hammers, computers, or anything else that's a product of an 
> > > unsustainable culture. The techniques of genetic modification are not 
> > > evil; it's the godawful stupid things they do with them that are the 
> > > evil. If we can talk about using technical solutions like hair mats and 
> > > mycelium to clean up oil spills (with all their pluses and minuses), 
> > > then we ought to include GMO microbes that eat oil in the toolkit. None 
> > > of them is going to solve the oil problem, but while we work on the 
> > > technical level, we work on other levels too.
> > >
> > > My sense is that activism, even Jensen's violent kind, isn't going to 
> > > bring civilization down--and I like Derrick a lot, and I speak as an 
> > > activist. The elites are much better at violence than anyone else. I 
> > > think oil will just get too scarce, and the crash will solve a lot of 
> > > those problems. I just hope it happens soon enough.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > http://patternliteracy.com
>
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