permaculture

[jamesdavid Sneed <harvestcircle@hotmail.com>]

Which alternative fuels might those be?

> Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:26:28 -0700
> From: cory8570@yahoo.com
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
> 
> "I thought we were talking
> about GMO life forms eating oil and when the oil is gone what else do they
> eat ."
> 
> They are not GMO microbes and when the oil is gone they die. That is what 
> happens to most microbes, algae, etc, when the fuel and environment they 
> survive on is gone. That's why monocropping kills the life in the soil. You 
> have to bring in microbes from outside the system, whether that is in 
> manure, organic material, compost, etc, if you want any there. 
> 
> Did you ever see the presentation on peak oil where we are compared to 
> algae that will reproduce until the one thing they eat is gone, and then 
> they all die?  I think that's a good metaphor for our oil obsession. Are we 
> smarter than algae or bacteria? Can we adapt and find other fuel to use? 
> 
> Bacteria are amazingly adaptable, and we have learned from them, but they 
> do starve and die when the fuel they use to survive is gone, and they do 
> seek a balance. It's true that they can jump to eating other things but 
> most of them die before that happens. Think of a fatal illness that only 
> humans can get. It can kill its host, but then it dies off en masse and 
> maybe completely, unless it finds more human food. 
> 
> I seriously doubt microbes will be used on any type of large scale in this 
> clean up. But perhaps they can help protect fragile wetlands and coastline 
> and it is a tool that should be considered. 
> 
> We do need to get off oil completely and go to alternative fuels that don't 
> harm the environment. They do exist and we know how to produce them now to 
> create minimal harm or maybe even regenerate. 
> 
> Cory
> 
> --- On Wed, 5/5/10, sals3 <sals3@cox.net> wrote:
> 
> > From: sals3 <sals3@cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 10:09 PM
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Toby Hemenway" <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:55 PM
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill - solutions?
> > 
> > 
> > > On May 5, 2010, at 3:43 PM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
> > >
> > >> If a person says that the ends justifies the
> > means, or if they say that 
> > >> gmo's may be acceptable, then they don't seem like
> > a permaculturist.
> > >
> > > Hmm. Doesn't sound like you really read anything I
> > wrote. You've put words 
> > > in my mouth that I never said. Stop it; please learn
> > to read without 
> > > projecting your fears onto me.
> > >
> > > Can you entertain the idea that not every statement
> > Monsanto makes is a 
> > > lie? Yes, they are using those statements to justify
> > doing stupid and 
> > > destructive things, but that does not make them
> > untrue. And if you are 
> > > going to comment on the subject, you should learn
> > something about it, like 
> > > the difference between GE techniques and GMOs. I don't
> > approve of GMO 
> > > release; I never said I did. GE techniques, however,
> > have been used to 
> > > make cancer, blood disease, and arthritis medications
> > that have saved or 
> > > improved the lives of countless hundreds of thousands,
> > and it's done 
> > > without release of organisms. A number of my friends
> > and family would be 
> > > dead without them. If you can find one iota of
> > ecological harm that's been 
> > > done by the creation of those drugs, I'll gladly back
> > right down.
> > 
> > 
> > what does curing cancer have to do with microbes that eat
> > oil . anyway I'm 
> > glad we agree on the gmos release being bad. . sorry we
> > misunderstood you . 
> > gmo microbes to help with oil spill that is what I see in
> > the subject line 
> > so I can c how folks would think you were talking releasing
> > gmos .  you 
> > can't blame us for that.  and do the gene jockeys lie
> > and Monsanto and the 
> > Oil companies lie and deceive for money I would say yes.
> > they are more 
> > powerful than governments and the blood shed for oil is
> > still going on. and 
> > I think  I seen them lie and I have seen them not be
> > able to control what 
> > they release and not care.  If someone wants to shot
> > GMO in their blood and 
> > get rid of cancer and stop blood vessels from growing that
> > is different than 
> > what we are talking about , oil in the gulf and
> > solutions.  I like your 
> > writings and am grateful for your wisdom so sorry I thought
> > we were talking 
> > about GMO life forms eating oil and when the oil is gone
> > what else do they 
> > eat .  sure if I had cancer I may try these new drugs
> > that stop the blood 
> > supply to the cancer.  it may be better then radiation
> > etc. but we are 
> > talking about oil in the gulf and how man has killed the
> > gulf and the life 
> > in it for love of money and to stop the oil spill they may
> > release something 
> > worse.  I heard that the microbes that eat oil eat
> > other things also.  I'm 
> > talking about release of life forms not a shot in your
> > blood stream that 
> > only effect you.  but if you don't like GMOs like me
> > good I glad because I 
> > know how influential you are .  to me it just sounded
> > like you were 
> > defending them with all that bs about what happen three
> > billions years ago. 
> > hey every one is justified in their own mines eye. 
> > when I came on this 
> > earth monkeys were monkesy and are still monkeys and man is
> > man and you can 
> > have all that evolutionary bs. I know what was here when I
> > got here.   to me 
> > they use that bs to justfy their  wickness they use
> > your arguments about how 
> > its just another way to breed crossing what ever with what
> > ever.  its wicked 
> > to me anyway sorry for the misunderstanding.even those that
> > make the cancer 
> > stopping drugs are getting paid and =those with the money
> > live and those 
> > without die what is it about 100000 a pill .  they
> > charge a lot for the life 
> > they are selling you.  some only live a few weeks
> > longer but in the end 
> > folks will give all their money and when the money runs out
> > the treatment 
> > stops.  hehe.  plus I feel they probalby give us
> > the cancer with their 
> > science .  the subject was oil spills.that the subject
> > not what someone says 
> > happen first three billion years of
> > life.   bs
> > .
> > > Back to the subject: There was a great article about a
> > year ago in the NY 
> > > Review of Books by Freeman Dyson that pointed out that
> > horizontal gene 
> > > transfer--the transfer of genes between wildly
> > different organisms--was 
> > > the main source of evolutionary change for most of
> > life's existence. There 
> > > was no such thing as a species for the ; no real
> > barriers to gene 
> > > exchange. The evolution of sex and the species barrier
> > is relatively 
> > > recent, only in existence for a small percentage of
> > life's tenure, and 
> > > only for a relative few organisms. Dyson went on to
> > speculate that the 
> > > advent of easy, available genetic engineering
> > kits--like chemistry sets 
> > > for kids--would mean the end of the brief window of
> > individual species. 
> > > Horizontal gene transfer would again be the norm, but
> > this time directed 
> > > by humans. I found that last a pretty frightening
> > thought, but I 
> > > appreciated his pointing out that horizontal gene
> > transfer is the rule, 
> > > not the exception.
> > >
> > > I just had the thought that maybe our fears of GMOs
> > are similar to the 
> > > largely groundless fears that the natives-only crowd
> > have about exotic 
> > > species: they'll take over; they'll ruin everything.
> > Superweeds may be bad 
> > > for farmers; who knows if they are harmful in any
> > larger sense. I'm not 
> > > sure that I'm ready to start thinking like that, but
> > it's worth 
> > > considering.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > > http://patternliteracy.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 5, 2010, at 3:43 PM, jamesdavid Sneed wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> If a person says that the ends justifies the
> > means, or if they say that 
> > >> gmo's may be acceptable, then they don't seem like
> > a permaculturist. The 
> > >> refrain of "I am a geneticist" and that Nature
> > does it anyways is 
> > >> straight out of testimonyby Monsanto I've heard
> > countless times at 
> > >> hearings and in reviewing eis filings.
> > >> Are even permaculture gurus subject to losing
> > their focus?
> > >>
> > >>> From: toby@patternliteracy.com
> > >>> Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:07:37 -0700
> > >>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > >>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Oil spill -
> > solutions?
> > >>>
> > >>> As a former geneticist, I want to point out
> > that nature transfers genes 
> > >>> between species, between families, even
> > between phyla and kingdoms. It 
> > >>> was viruses that taught geneticists how to do
> > it; viruses move genes 
> > >>> between the most distantly related organisms
> > with great frequency and 
> > >>> ease, making the genetically engineered tomato
> > with a fish gene look 
> > >>> like child's play. Nature is far ahead of us
> > in the breeding world, and 
> > >>> is doing things we can barely dream of.
> > >>>
> > >>> It makes no more sense to condemn genetic
> > engineering itself than it 
> > >>> does to condemn a hammer or a computer. It's a
> > tool. A permaculturist 
> > >>> doesn't rule out a tool simply because of its
> > origin; if we did we 
> > >>> wouldn't use hammers, computers, or anything
> > else that's a product of an 
> > >>> unsustainable culture. The techniques of
> > genetic modification are not 
> > >>> evil; it's the godawful stupid things they do
> > with them that are the 
> > >>> evil. If we can talk about using technical
> > solutions like hair mats and 
> > >>> mycelium to clean up oil spills (with all
> > their pluses and minuses), 
> > >>> then we ought to include GMO microbes that eat
> > oil in the toolkit. None 
> > >>> of them is going to solve the oil problem, but
> > while we work on the 
> > >>> technical level, we work on other levels too.
> > >>>
> > >>> My sense is that activism, even Jensen's
> > violent kind, isn't going to 
> > >>> bring civilization down--and I like Derrick a
> > lot, and I speak as an 
> > >>> activist. The elites are much better at
> > violence than anyone else. I 
> > >>> think oil will just get too scarce, and the
> > crash will solve a lot of 
> > >>> those problems. I just hope it happens soon
> > enough.
> > >>>
> > >>> Toby
> > >>> http://patternliteracy.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > 
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> > 
> 
> 
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