permaculture

[Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo.com>]

Juergen,
   
  I'm allergic to an "us" and "they" mentality that tends to 
  enclose people in a cosy little alternative corner while
  mainstream society moves passed.
   
  > ... parasites ... diseases ... aliens that can cost us our 
  > health and life ... us [humans] stop the alien menace ..."
   
  Do you take all of this alien stuff literally and not just as 
  a metaphor for something you disapprove of? I hope not.
   
  >Everything that is wrong in the world today has it's basis in an
>economic system that considers ever increasing production as the
>primary good, and that system is 99% controlled by the corporations.
   
  I'm not going to defend consumerism, nor am I adverse to 
  bashing the Monsantos of this World. That is the good fight.
  Yet, that economic system, with all its imperfections, is all 
  we have got. There are changes ahead with the resources 
  of this planet being as limited as they are. The system will 
  stay stable as long as it has enough flexibility to adapt to 
  the changes needed. And if you look into history or at other 
  cultural spheres you are unlikely to find other models that 
  provide more flexibility.
   
  I agree that there can be no unlimited growth in a limited
  environment. What are the solutions for the future? Frankly,
  I have no idea. As a hunch, perhaps it needs to include a
  redirection of human endeavour into more sustainable forms
  of living, but that is so vague as to be almost meaningless.
  Anyway, I think we need to be deeply distrustful of utopian 
  fantasies from the alternative fringe that will collapse into 
  chaos at the first real test.
   
  >> The bad corporations don't make anything you don't want to buy.
>Oh yes, they do. ...they call that marketing, but I call it lying ...
   
  It's a chicken and egg question and not very productive in
  conversation.
   
  And just to give you another shock, I used to work in 
  corporate communications. Yes, they are humans! 
  Not the corporations but the people working there.
  And a lot of them do a real good job too. If the effect
  of what corporations do can sometimes be negative, 
  it is not because they or the people working for them 
  are a "disease", "parasites" or "aliens", it is because 
  the system makes them function in that way. The 
  very system that sustains your life like mine like 
  everybody else’s.
   
  But do make soap! There is a lot to be said for 
  cleanliness.
   
  Dieter
   
  PS:
  > ...  the corporations are the power that is perpetuating 
  > it and fighting against any change.

  You would be surprised at just how well they adapt to
  change, it's almost scary.
   
  Juergen Botz <jurgen@botz.org> wrote:
  Dieter Brand wrote:
>>> How did people change from being makers of things to "consumers?"
>> When our civilization was taken over by an alien species of producers,
> 
> Yes, yes, its always the fault of the others, the aliens. Timeworn recipe
> for finding scapegoats with others, other people, other races. Just too 
> convenient, since it releases us of the need to look for the real problem
> which, more often then not, is much closer to home. 

I know... "we have met the enemy, and he is us." After all,
corporations today are as much part of us as civilization itself,
right? But then, so are the parasites and diseases that co-
evolved with us... yet at the same time they are aliens who 
can cost us our health and life. I'm not trying to disclaim 
human responsibility... it's up to us to stop the alien menace. 
But to do that we have to recognize it for what it is. 

Besides, my statement was factual. Until the corporations 
began to dominate the economic system, >90% of all production 
was by human individuals. And more importantly, most human 
individuals had the basic knowledge to produce the essentials 
of their life or at least of what those things actually were
and how they were made. How many people today know even 
something as simple as what soap is? Every supermarket has
at least two entire iles full of minor variations of this one
product, sold at a wide range of prices to individuals who 
have no clue that it's all the same thing.

Everything that is wrong in the world today has it's basis in an
economic system that considers ever increasing production as the
primary good, and that system is 99% controlled by the corporations.
It isn't that pre-corporations we didn't already have the beginnings
of the same problems or that humans were more enlightened. But
today the situation is as I describe it, and the corporations are
the power that is perpetuating it and fighting against any change.

> The bad corporations don't make anything you don't want to buy.

Oh yes, they do. Much of commerce (especially retail) long ago 
stopped being about supplying demand and became all about CREATING 
demand. They call that marketing, but I call it lying and 
brainwashing.

:j

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>From erda@nor.com.au  Fri Feb  8 16:33:43 2008
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Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 08:28:32 +1100
From: Robyn Francis <erda@nor.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] reed beds
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Depends on what plant you're using and what uses it has. Most rushes, sedges
and reeds have uses as fibre plants for weaving, phragmites for thatch
(you'd need a LOT of it to thatch anything, so not a realistic yield from a
treatment system). All can be used as mulch - best used for trees rather
than annual veg gardens.
Typha (Cattail/Bullrush) is a great weaving & mulch plant - while it has
edible uses it is generally a precautionary principle not to use plants from
waste treatment systems for human consumption.
Robyn


On 8/2/08 11:49 PM, "Christoph Redwitz" <Latuerlich@gmx.de> wrote:

> How do you run the reed beds now?
> With using the reeds i meant, if you can use the plant outcome or if its 
> just
> purification. I think you can use phragmites as mulch and maybe constucting
> material (roofs maybe)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:59:05 +1100
>> Von: Robyn Francis <erda@nor.com.au>
>> An: permaculture <permaculture@eslists.ibiblio.org>
>> Betreff: Re: [permaculture] reed beds
> 
>> 
>> I have reed bed systems here in sub-tropic Australia. Yes, we do have
>> water
>> loss through evapo-transpiration which varies with the seasons, depending
>> on
>> temperature and weather. When it's very hot and dry the reeds tend to use
>> most of the waste water and there's little comes out the other end, but
>> most
>> of the year there is some water coming through for re-use.
>> 
>> There are a lot of rushes and sedges suitable for purification. Phragmites
>> spp tend to have aggressive root systems which grow into pipes and block
>> them, so while one if the best performers re treatment, they create a lot
>> of
>> maintenance. The prefered species here are Juncus, Scirpus and Typha. I
>> also
>> have a greywater reed bed planted with Cyerus papyrus (which looks
>> stunning)
>> and Yellow Flag Iris.
>> What did you mean by using the reeds properly?
>> 
>> Ciao
>> Robyn
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/2/08 1:00 AM, "Christoph Redwitz" <latuerlich@gmx.de> wrote:
>> 
>>> It not yet a concret plan. It's more a dream: moving to a warmer place.
>>> Evapotranspiration is here in Germany no problem. The reed beds a
>>> working very well. But i in hot climat, one says: reed beds are a good
>>> option, because you can recycle your greywater in that way, and other
>>> say, you can use reed beds but u wont get water back. But actually i
>>> have these statements out of literatur. Thats why i am asking now here
>> :)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Lawrence F. London, Jr. schrieb:
>>>> Christoph Redwitz wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>> Does anybody have some experience with read bed purification in dry
>>>>> areas? I'v read about it, that it is not practical there, because of
>> the
>>>>> high evapotranspiration loss of water. But on the other hand i heard
>> of
>>>>> many people that they use it. Do you get water back from that system?
>>>>> And can you use the reed propperly?
>>>>> Are there more effectiv plants to use on that kind of pourification?
>>>>>     
>>>> 
>>>> Reedbed greywater purification systems are widely used in the UK.
>>>> Is evapotranspiration a problem unique to using reeds in beds?
>>>> If so maybe erecting some kind of greenhouse over the bed would reduce
>> that
>>>> water loss
>>>> and infuse the system with clean condensed water from the inside
>> surfaces of
>>>> the greenhouse.
>>>> Left partly open in hot weather for ventilation and closed in cold this
>>>> structure could
>>>> be left in place year round. Where are you thinking of using this
>> system?
>>>> Europe?
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>   
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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