permaculture

["Michael Kramer" <MKramer@hawaii.rr.com>]

Alrighty them, it seems we've regressed back to third grade again on this
list, how lovely; it seems to happen every few months, just when one might
hope otherwise. When we're trying to have a conversation and people resort
to judgmental name-calling, it just points to how far we need to go. But
when it comes from the host of the list, you know we're in serious trouble.
I vote for a new administrator of this list or, would anyone else like to
start another international permaculture list where people with open minds
can exchange ideas without being chastised?  This one is unsafe at any
speed.

-----
Michael Kramer, Accredited Investment Fiduciary
Natural Investment Services
P.O. Box 390595
Keauhou, HI 96739

Michael@NaturalInvesting.com
www.NaturalInvesting.com
808-331-0910
Toll-free: 888-779-1500

Socially Conscious Portfolio Management & Hourly Consulting
Sustainability Strategic Planning and Education

"Be the change you wish to see in the world."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 3:28 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] permaculture Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. the dualistic split in permaculture teaching (Rain Tenaqiya)
>    2. Re: the dualistic split in permaculture teaching
>       (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>    3. RE: the dualistic split in permaculture teaching (Carrie Shepard)
>    4. Re: the dualistic split in permaculture teaching (Sean Maley)
>    5. Re: Succession (Robyn Francis)
>    6. Re: Re: course format (Toby Hemenway)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:10:06 -0800 (PST)
> From: Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] the dualistic split in permaculture teaching
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050304191007.28201.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Michael Kramer is on to something very important.  It seems that the
permaculture movement is suffering from the old matter/spirit split and it
is hindering the movement from applying permaculture design to social
systems.  There seems to be an assumption that humuns are somehow separate
from the rest of Nature.  Therefore, it is possible to apply systems
theory/ecological principles to physical, land-based or even energy-based
designs, but not to the relationships between people or their social
systems.  But humun systems are part of Nature and obey the same laws.
>
> I once saw a surprisingly useful presentation by Darren Huckle of Santa
Cruz on permaculture principles as applied to spirituality.  If you can
apply permaculture to spirituality, you can definitely apply it to economic
systems, group dynamics, political systems, and all the rest.  Permaculture
teachers say permaculture is about design and not techniques, but students
are not getting it.  Maybe if we had a course without reference to trees,
water, and earth (I profess to wince at the thought), people would finally
get it.  The essence of permaculture is about relationships, not objects.
Many urban people have trouble apply permaculture to their lives because
they don't have much access to trees, water, or soil.  What we need is a
permaculture revolution.
>
> Let's do it!
>
> Rain
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
>  Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:56:41 -0800
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] the dualistic split in permaculture
> teaching
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <422903C9.9020909@intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> Rain Tenaqiya wrote:
> > Michael Kramer is on to something very important.
>
> No he's not.
>
>   It seems that the permaculture movement is suffering from the old
matter/spirit split
>
> No its not.
>
> and it is hindering the movement from applying permaculture design to
social systems.
>
> Spare us more social engineering.
>
> There seems to be an assumption that humuns are somehow separate from the
rest of Nature.
>
> I know noone who assumes such things.
>
>   Therefore, it is possible to apply systems theory/ecological principles
to physical,
> land-based or even energy-based designs, but not to the relationships
between people or their social systems.
> But humun systems are part of Nature and obey the same laws.
> > I once saw a surprisingly useful presentation by Darren Huckle of Santa
Cruz on
> permaculture principles as applied to spirituality.  If you can apply
permaculture to spirituality,
> you can definitely apply it to economic systems, group dynamics, political
systems, and all the rest.
>   Permaculture teachers say permaculture is about design and not
techniques, but students are not getting it.
>
> Maybe if we had a course without reference to trees, water, and earth (I
profess to wince at the thought),
> people would finally get it.
>
> Spare us more of Kramer's loony mind wanderings.
>
> The essence of permaculture is about relationships, not objects.
>   Many urban people have trouble apply permaculture to their lives because
they don't have much access
> to trees, water, or soil.  What we need is a permaculture revolution.
>
> You're preaching to the choir.
>
>
> LL
> -- 
> L.F.London
> lfl@intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> Market Farming Forum
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/marketfarming
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:20:35 -0600
> From: "Carrie Shepard" <outlikeelijah@gbronline.com>
> Subject: RE: [permaculture] the dualistic split in permaculture
> teaching
> To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <1109974955_1930@GBRonline.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> Ahh, I've recently been reading Michael Novak's Spirit of Democratic
> Capitalism and Hildegard of Bingen.
>
> Both of these writers speak to community and our relationships to one
> another and to nature in a positive light.  Together these books along
with
> the Covey writings on interdependence being the goal instead of
independence
> are really helping me be content with where I am in my own community
> building efforts here.
>
> Recently a neighbor and her husband and I drove an hour and half from here
> to pick up enough used steel hoops at only $3 each for 4 families to put
up
> hoophouses near here.  We're all working on year round harvesting from our
> pieces of land and trying to make a way for our teen children to make an
> income from home.   All of us see the importance of a holistic view of
life
> and are making changes to help our children focus on the more important
> things in life instead of consumerism.
>
> Last winter I had checked out some books (but can't even remember them
> because they were more like rootless ideas instead of tried and true real
> life this is where we are and can move to) on community minded
permaculture.
> >From what I remember these books seemed like stuffy college texts lacking
> nuts and bolts reality of real work.
>
> I haven't been to any formal training courses and may be off the mark here
> alltogether, but from what I have studied and tried to implement, it seems
> that these writings offer good insight.
>
> Carrie
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:49:28 -0800 (PST)
> From: Sean Maley <semaley@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] the dualistic split in permaculture
> teaching
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20050304224928.9758.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Perhaps Michael is being purposely jarring.  Perhaps
> the message is that we need to demonstrate ways to
> stop consuming and start participating.  Why is a
> certificate needed for everyone?  Would a rating
> system help qualify the meaning of a piece of paper?
> What good is paper if no results back it up?
>
> --------------
> Rambling alert!!!
> --------------
> ------------------------------------------------
> ROLE:  a person wanting to know more, but...
>
> There is an entrance fee to free the land from
> ownership, but there is also a fee to be recognized as
> a permaculturist.  I've always wondered why somebody
> needs me to give them some money to help them work
> their land.  If permaculture works so well, then why
> is my money needed by them?  Wouldn't my work benefit
> them and they would possibly need money from me?  Why
> pay them twice if it supposedly works better than
> monoculture?  Sounds like monoculture to me.  Just
> another scam.  Besides, I won't be able to see my
> family in Maine if I go on this course anyway.
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> It may be unfair to also compare PC to economics, but
> economics is needed prior to anyone escaping the city.
>  The entrance fee in my neighborhood is
> $millions/acre.  I can't even get past insurance to
> get on a roof.  Community gardens are so small that a
> window container works just as well if you are lucky
> to pick the proper building.
>
> My PC friends live two hours away by subway; I'm in
> Manhattan (last street on northern tip), they are in
> Queens and Brooklyn.  We face a million dollar price
> tag just for ample land 2 hours out of the city.  We
> can't escape the wage slavery lock down and our
> families may not support going away for a few weeks
> for a course which amounts to a hobby in a city.
>
> Perhaps trainers need to hit the road and come to the
> people.  Remember that the people most interested
> won't be able to pay you for it.  I'm sure you will
> have a place to stay and food, but don't count on them
> going to you or even paying for it.  Anyone with the
> spare time and money in Manhattan isn't likely to be
> interested in a yurt vacation; have fun getting their
> beautiful fingers dirty.
>
> I'm observing a need for an economic gateway paradigm;
> many urban folks are effectively locked up in the city
> for whatever reasons.  I think we can free them, but
> it can't happen until we start applying PC principles
> "beyond sustainability". I don't perceive politics as
> important, because it is so dependent upon economics
> at this point (2004 exit poll statistics should be
> enough to convince you of this).
>
> I'm basing my strategy upon some of Henry Georges
> writing; from land, people, and economic capital, we
> pay rent, wages, and interest.  Rent is most
> important, because we are stewards of the land.  Wages
> are important because we as humans require water,
> food, shelter, security, and social needs addressed.
> As for interest, we don't really need it beyond the
> energy decline, but we need it now to free the land
> from it's bonds.
>
> One person holed up on their property can do little
> for themselves, never mind produce interest.  Ten can
> do alright for themselves, but not much interest.  One
> Hundred could possible produce some interest, but not
> a lot.  It's when you get serious numbers of workers,
> who pay the land and themselves first (reproduction),
> but also come up with extra to buy more land
> (production).
>
> If all the ecovillages out there were serious about
> saving billions of lives, they would begin to
> accumulate land and populate it with permaculture
> students.  Not just land in remote Idaho or the
> Himalayas, but land making the greatest impact on the
> global environment.  It won't be hard finding people
> starving in the streets, because poverty is greatest
> in these places.
>
> As you free these poor souls from the grid, you will
> only be thanked, perhaps an economic boost not paying
> as much taxes for welfare.  It's when land and wage
> earners become ever more scarce that we run into
> trouble.  Monoculture business can't compete, because
> we set up like a swiss army knife to their switch
> blade; nice for a fight, but they need a screw driver
> in order to not be screwed.  We reuse and aren't
> looking for the materials they need.  We design the
> land to be reproductive; we are reproductive to the
> land as part of it; we are careful to be choosy how we
> pay the interest to the monoculture....
>
> Here we are:
>
>  Design Principles
>    1. Observe and Interact
>    2. Catch and Store Energy
>    3. Obtain a Yield
>    4. Apply Self Regulation and Accept Feedback
>    5. Use and Value Renewable Resources and Services
>    6. Produce No Waste
>    7. Design From Patterns To Details
>    8. Integrate Rather Than Segregate
>    9. Use Small and Slow Solutions
>   10. Use and Value Diversity
>   11. Use Edges and Value The Marginal
>   12. Creatively Use and Respond To Change
>
> Businesses ought to gobble it right up.  This is
> likely the response to superior design, especially
> considering wealth distribution in monoculture.
>
>
> -Sean.
>
>
> --- Rain Tenaqiya <raincascadia@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Michael Kramer is on to something very important.
> > It seems that the permaculture movement is suffering
> > from the old matter/spirit split and it is hindering
> > the movement from applying permaculture design to
> > social systems.  There seems to be an assumption
> > that humuns are somehow separate from the rest of
> > Nature.  Therefore, it is possible to apply systems
> > theory/ecological principles to physical, land-based
> > or even energy-based designs, but not to the
> > relationships between people or their social
> > systems.  But humun systems are part of Nature and
> > obey the same laws.
> >
> > I once saw a surprisingly useful presentation by
> > Darren Huckle of Santa Cruz on permaculture
> > principles as applied to spirituality.  If you can
> > apply permaculture to spirituality, you can
> > definitely apply it to economic systems, group
> > dynamics, political systems, and all the rest.
> > Permaculture teachers say permaculture is about
> > design and not techniques, but students are not
> > getting it.  Maybe if we had a course without
> > reference to trees, water, and earth (I profess to
> > wince at the thought), people would finally get it.
> > The essence of permaculture is about relationships,
> > not objects.  Many urban people have trouble apply
> > permaculture to their lives because they don't have
> > much access to trees, water, or soil.  What we need
> > is a permaculture revolution.
> >
> > Let's do it!
> >
> > Rain
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> >  Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:21:17 +1100
> From: Robyn Francis <erda@nor.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Succession
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BE4F46AD.49F6%erda@nor.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I've been following this discussion - (and Michael, this is a response,
not
> a reaction) - and consider both side have valid points.
>
> The PDC is The Permaculture Design Course - represents a common
> international standard for permaculturists in all countries and climates.
> Anyone from any place on earth who has a Certificate of Completion for a
PDC
> has a common basis in terms of understanding permaculture principles and
the
> breadth of applications. When we call something a PDC it should be in
> accordance with these internationally recognised ground rules.
>
> I've facilitated over 90 PDC's since 1985 and when I teach PDC's I adhere
to
> the agreed curriculum and conduct the courses in more than the minimum 72
> hours (the extra hours I include are for practical, excursions and
touching
> on areas beyond the Designer's Manual). I see the PDC having an on-going
> role in permaculture and provided teachers keep themselves up-to-date with
> planetary and local trends & information, the course will never be
'dated'.
> In this respect I disagree with Michael.
>
> However, the PDC, while it plays a vital role as an in-depth intensive
> introduction to Pc, has it's inherent limits. There's both scope and need
> for other kinds of permaculture training and this is where Michael is on
the
> right track. I have been developing and delivering specialist courses for
> the past 15 years (Native plants & foods in Pc design, Design for Human
> Settlements, Pc for Third World & Indigenous Peoples etc) Michele & Jude
> Fanton have developed their Seed Saving programs. There are others who've
> developed all kinds of specialist training on various elements, aspects
and
> applications of pc philosophy and sustainability principles, and topics
> inspired by pc including eco-spirituality, eco-nomics, community glue &
> mediation. BUT none of these presents itself as a 'PDC'. (though some
> courses may require participants to have already completed a PDC as a
> pre-requisite)
>
> Here in Australia we've been discussing the pro's, con's and limitations
of
> the PDC for around 10 years. There's a danger of the PDC becoming an
> educational monoculture and many of saw the need for a diversity of
courses
> and training to meet the diverse needs of participants and society
> generally. One outcome of this discussion has been the recent
accreditation
> of permaculture training with the National Accreditation Authority of
> Certificates 1-4 and a Diploma of Permaculture. This new training is in
> early stages of getting off the ground, and there's much more I could
write
> about it but time precludes and this response is already long enough.
>
> In short, I think the PDC curriculum parameters & minimum delivery
> time-frame should be honoured by all, and those of us who see additional
> training needs should develop training to meet those needs, but give it
> another name: Permaculture for Eco-enterprise, Permaculture Principles and
> Spirituality etc etc etc. It all boils down to what we call things, a
spade
> is a spade, and to sell a crowbar as a spade is ultimately misleading.
>
> Robyn Francis
>
>
>
>
>
> On 4/3/05 5:53 PM, "Michael Kramer" <MKramer@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Since I am not surprised at all by the reaction I'm getting to
suggestions
> > for change, I'm going to take this conversation to another level. All
> > natural systems evolve, and the way they do this is through succession,
> > waste recycling, resource accumulation, etc. These concepts can be
pointed
> > out without needing to spend hours on the water cycle or the functions
of
> > trees. Energy exchange and addressing entropy can be covered using
countless
> > examples in the invisible structures realm, all while basing the
analysis on
> > the way nature works. What's really interesting is that other movements
have
> > found a way to do this while we are left in the dust, and they are
having a
> > serious impact. The Ecopsychology, Ecological Design, Natural
Capitalism,
> > and Natural Steps folks came well after us and have managed to really
get
> > their message out there in a great way, tackle significant projects, and
> > generate credibility. We have not.
> >
> > So the Basic Permaculture Design Course should evolve, for despite its
good
> > qualities, it is obsolete. It's too focused on how nature works and not
on
> > applications of the principles of natural systems. The designs students
> > typically create are primitive and reflect only rudimentary
understanding of
> > the relationships between elements in a system, and this is because most
of
> > the course is spent lecturing in one ear and out the other on techniques
in
> > one dimension rather than on the qualities of superior relationships.
Let me
> > be moe clear about this. Many (could one say most?) permaculture
> > certification course graduates DO NOT UNDERSTAND PERMACULTURE DESIGN.
This
> > is a direct reflection of the quality of our design courses, and it is
> > important that the experienced teachers among us take this to heart even
> > though it is difficult to hear. We must place ego aside - this work
isn't
> > about us an individual personalities trying to hash out some sort of
bizarre
> > pecking order or pay homage to what Bill originated. We are failing as a
> > movement, in this country anyway, and it is our own (un)doing. And one
> > reason I think this way is because I facilitate teacher trainings and
see
> > what the students know. It is not a measure of success if students leave
a
> > design course and write nice evaluations of the course and go on their
merry
> > way; it's the retention and future application of what they have learned
> > that matters, and without such feedback, most of the permaculture
teachers
> > in this country have no idea what those they teach do with this
information.
> > Without this feedback loop, we think "it ain't broke", but people have
> > insufficient information to draw such a conclusion and believe that as
long
> > as students keep signing up for design courses they must be ok. But I'm
> > seeing what people know and what we're doing isn't that effective. And
> > there's nothing wrong with my saying so, folks; it's ok for me to think
this
> > and to want to do something about it. And I'd like to point out that
many
> > students feel the same way, but they don't bring it up out of respect
for
> > the teachers; and so, things remain the same.
> >
> > We desperately need modified versions of the certification course. I
could
> > teach an entire certification course on the design of human
interpersonal
> > relationships based on the principles of permaculture and its approaches
to
> > design - and I wouldn't need to teach about water, trees, or climate to
do
> > so. For one doesn't need to cover these topics in such detail to get at
the
> > principles of energy storage and cycling. I really would like people to
use
> > their peripheral consciousness here to imagine the possibilities for the
> > application of our work. We are stuck in a one-dimensional approach to
both
> > the content and process of teaching a design philosophy that is holistic
in
> > nature.  Bill could get away with talking at people for 72 hours, I
suppose,
> > because of his dynamism, but lets not fool that with good pedagogy. The
way
> > the design course is taught needs to evolve. The people who are teaching
it
> > (myself included) need to mulch ourselves and allow for the natural
process
> > of succession to replace the pioneer species with more collaborative
> > students with fresh approaches to teaching. Many of our students are
urban
> > activists who want to take permaculture to a political and economic
level,
> > and believe me, our certification course doesn't address this well. But
> > perhaps more importantly, people who are applying the principles of
natural
> > systems to the design of permaculture educational experiences have gone
on
> > to facilitate unbelievable educational programs far better than things I
or
> > most of the pioneer teachers have done. And we should be so thankful for
> > this succession rather than resist based on our need for control or
respect.
> > And we should also recognize that there are indeed permaculture design
> > courses out there which are not anywhere near the format or content of
what
> > we experienced teachers think - this is a reality, and we must be aware
of
> > it.
> >
> > So, even though I am tired of the critiques, I am hanging on to the
notion
> > that there are more of us out there who want to be self-reflective and
take
> > permaculture to the next level. When people within our movement
discredit
> > efforts to broaden and deepen our collective understanding of
permaculture,
> > we miss an opportunity to evaluate and redesign our system, and that is
my
> > higher calling, friends.
> >
> > Michael Kramer
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:28:48 -0800
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Re: course format
> To: permaculture list <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BE4E4B50.3C3C%toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I'm intrigued with Michael's idea that permaculture can be taught without
> covering soil, water, plants, etc. I agree that the idea behind Pc could
be
> conveyed in such a way--I know a lot of people practicing Pc who are not
> gardeners, and the concepts of whole-systems design can be found in places
> other than the garden. But as Larry S. points out, whole systems design is
> modeled on and derives almost wholly from nature. The other fields that
> Michael refers to--ecopsychology, ecological design, etc, all make
frequent
> references to natural systems in their teachings; they use examples of
> trees, lakes, animals, etc. to convey their ideas (Bill McDonough's "waste
> equals food" for example). In contrast, most human-designed systems
> operating today are wrenchingly dysfunctional: the stock market, law,
> politics, religion, housing, energy use, and so on. So one would have to
be
> awfully choosy to draw useful principles from human systems (unless you
> restrict your choices to indigenous, low-tech people who, revealingly, are
> living very close to nature), whereas one could pluck perfect examples of
> sustainability almost at random from nature.
>
> As Michael knows, I'm in agreement that 72 hours of lecture is a dreadful
> way to convey Pc. I learned and retained far more about Pc from the
> experiential PDC I took from Penny Livingston and Tom Ward than from the
> lecture PDC I took from Mollison. But I'm also a firm believer in having a
> shared body of knowledge common to all Pc practitioners, grounded in a
> curriculum that covers principles, methods, water, soil, ecosystems, and
> invisible structures. One can practice surgery without knowing organic
> chemistry, but o-chem gives all surgeons a common language and a set of
> working concepts to describe the phenomena they work with. I think the
> analogy is true for permaculture. I still think the PDC curriculum is an
> effective way to convey Pc, but it's obvious that there can be huge
> variations in how it's presented, both in terms of what is covered and in
> the format of presentation. But I'm not ready to hand out a certificate
for
> a course that skips the garden modules. I think that with some
> audiences--urban activists, for example-- one could spend a very short
time
> on the soil/water/plants segment--enough to show the origin and universal
> applicability of the principles--and focus mainly on invisible structures.
> And it can be given in a straight shot or in multiple weekend, 4-day,
5-day,
> one-week, or other formats. The people who argue that it can only be done
in
> the 2-week lecture format (is anyone really saying that?) are in a very
> small minority and to focus on them is a waste of time and ignores the
fact
> that the format has already evolved very successfully beyond that.
>
> Toby
> www.patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 26, Issue 5
> *******************************************
>