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  • From: "jamie" <jamie@tiscali.fr>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: RE: [permaculture] Walled Communities
  • Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 16:01:12 -0000

This is a fraught debate, and although there is the risk of fanning the heat rather than increasing light, I'd like to add to it.
 
There is little doubt that Toby weighed his words carefully before writing what is, despite rationalisations, a charged observation. We know that because he has said so, but we might also judge it from the history of his posts to this group that are generally (all?) thoughtful (and here I am only trying to suggest that he engages with the subject of the debate, irrespective of what we might think about his arguments).
 
Given this historically 'thoughtful' Toby it would seem reasonable for us to carefully judge all his words to discover just what he was intending to say as then (as he says himself) "If you read all the words it probably wont frighten or annoy you."
 
And yet, this concentration on the words used and the intended point made, miss the point that Toby actually made what is quite obviously an illiberal remark (the equation of, with provisos, worth to money): "It's a sad fact that often (with notable exceptions) people without cash also don't have skills, experience, or sometimes the will to persevere, which are all useful to a community." While it is clear that Toby was referring to communities being constructed within 'the community' (society) it is not clear why these communities are in any way different to society in their need for people with skills, experience and the will to persevere.
 
But, contrary to the expectations of those who have read to this point, my intention is not to denigrate Toby but to applaud his voicing of a problem often passed over in silence because of liberal prejudices against making value judgements (and again my support does not come from agreement with Toby's equation of worth to wealth). My claim would be that modern liberalism is at the heart of the depoliticisation of the population because so much is always already ruled out in discussion.
 
Because permaculture interests itself in 'care of people' it enters the realm of politics and must, in confronting entrenched perspectives, often voice arguments that make people uncomfortable. PC is not merely a mild adjustment to the satus quo but a radical attempt at reordering the values by which we reach a concensus on what constitutes a sustainable status quo.
 
Part of this opening of debate must include some sort of criteria of judgement on what constitutes a more viable form of life. When I say that through past experience I've learnt Toby to be 'thoughtful' I am already trying to establish part of this criteria, his PDC teaching, his book and media interviews also contribute to the exemplification of the community he would help construct.
 
It is Toby's (and Meikal's) exemplification of their values in the lives they lead that confers, or rather, that we through respect of their work, confer on them our willingness to consider what they might say.
 
What I am trying to establish is a counter to the liberal political arena where consideration is given only to those views which already carry the accepted values. The proposal is that considerations of right and wrong are not determined by the acceptance to engage or not with the argument, but that all arguments are as valid as any other and must compete with each other for recognition. And one of the best ways for the elevation of one argument above another would be that the person making the argument lives the life they describe - they have integrity.
 
In this way, Toby's point about the worth of community members (or an intentional community at least, because this has certain stated values to which members are expected to agree to) need not be reduced to monetary commitment but their integrity in relation to the values they eschew as members of that community.
 
Jamie
Souscayrous






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