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permaculture - Re: [permaculture] the hydrogen argument

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  • From: "Lee Flier" <lflier@mindspring.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] the hydrogen argument
  • Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:20:9 -0500

Robert Waldrop wrote:

>It seems to me that a major point is missing, which is that with
>hydrogen, and the thermal depolymerization fuel processes, you always
>end up with LESS energy than it took to make them. So where does the
>energy profit come from to make these processes possible? Complexity is
>fine, but at some point there has to be something yielding a huge energy
>profit to make that complexity possible. If in the absence of fossil
>fuels, all of our fuel systems are net energy losers, then over time
>they wind down to nothing.

Exactly.

>My spreadsheet says that to replace the world's oil production with
>biodiesel made from soybean oil would require 33 billion acres of
>soybeans. If we use palm oil, it would take 3 billion acres of palm
>trees. If we use pecan oil, it would take 5 billion acres of pecan
>trees. The land surface of the world is about 36 billion acres. So if
>we devote all our cropland to making fuel and plastics, where do we grow
>our food? Not to mention, where do we live, and where are the wild
>places for the rest of creation?

Right again.

>I don't think we need to learn to do more with less, in fact we need to
>learn to live with less. I know that's unpopular, especially for people
>who live high energy lifestyles. If we don't learn how to live with
>much less than we are presently accustomed to, it is likely that your
>grand children will end up in the neolithic or worse, if indeed they
>live at all.

Yes. If we are to survive we're going to have to do some combination of two
things: 1) reduce our population, and 2) reduce our consumption levels. We
can reduce our consumption all we want to but if population growth doesn't
stop, it will all come to naught at some point. Likewise we can slow
population growth but if everyone's energy consumption continues to increase
exponentially it will also come to naught. Only a DRASTICALLY reduced
population can continue to consume at the rate the Western world does and not
decimate the planet.

--Lee

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