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  • From: Marimike6@cs.com
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] the hydrogen argument
  • Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 10:14:30 EDT

In a message dated 6/16/2003 10:44:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, Daniel.Donahoo@dhs.vic.gov.au writes:
in regards to recent posts on hydrogen -

why are we all still looking for the quick fix? the one solution to all our
problems?
surely if permaculture teachs anything it is that complex systems require
complex management and that there is no one quick fix - that it is about
observing and interacting with systems over long and sustained periods that
allows us to exist more sustainably within our enviornments. if nothing
else the long and sustained observation of industrialisation is telling us
that we consume too much. the debate of where will the energy come from is
in its death throws. the debate is now how do we make what we have last and
how do we live in a low energy future.

cheers

dan d


Daniel--

Energy use is certainly a complex system. Hydro power is not a 'quick fix' but an extra tool in the tool belt to address future energy needs. Regardless of how much we as a species learn to conserve energy we can only scrimp and save so much. The planet is approaching the limits of sustainability right now, and is due to continue growing at an increasingly fast pace. Once we run up against limits there will be no need to preach the message of permaculture-- people will turn to it of necessity.

The real future will lie in the development of new fuel processes, of which one of the most interesting is the thermal depolymerization method described in <http://discover.com/may_03/featoil.html>. Since the six and a quarter billion people we already have have immense fuel requirements, and the majority of them haven't even been brought into the first world yet, what will our requirement be when there are twice that many, all brought into the global economy? Unimaginable, that's what. Even if they drive around on little Vespas they are going to be using lots of fuel. And people are working on all sorts of renewable synfuels now, like gasohol.

So I agree, it's very complex. I also would offer that even after people learn to limit waste and repair gross environmental neglect, their demand for a world of products is still going to be humongous. Let's hope that continues too, because otherwise all those billions are going to be vastly under-employed.

If we can make a full range of products out of agricultural end products, as the thermal depolymerization crowd suggests, and make vehicle fuels in the form of hydrogen out of renewable energy sources, our grandkids will still be able to drive to work and enjoy a reasonable quality of living. To me, that will be greatly superior to everyone's having to merely learn to live without. The neolithic era doesn't look as though it was all that much fun.

Mike Elvin




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