Healthy soil and sustainable growing

[Michelle Silva <cosmobaby@verizon.net>]

Wow, I hadn't even read this yet and basically wrote something very similar in the email I just sent.
Michelle

---

From: "paul@oneseedling.com" <paul@oneseedling.com>
To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 7:14:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] World Hunger Best Cured by Small-Scale Agriculture

Apparently your mind is already made up so no amount of debate is going to change that.
All the "statistics" were estimates based on local land prices and my experiences growing food for sale.
Paul the Skeptic
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 13, 2011, at 10:32 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:

>
> Not working? News to me. Look, you dismissed well-proven benefits of small scale intensive growing on grounds people can't make a living at it, and touted your "qualifications" to cite statistics you apparently made up. You must know you'll get challenged on that, but I didn't censor your post, did I. Now if you really want to debate how aquaponics stacks up financially against small scale intensive, I'm game. Or not?
>
> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 1/13/2011 at 8:52 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>
>> So, if it is so simple then why is it not working? 
>> I was trying to point out problems and why the system quit working and
>> possible solutions, not being sarcastic as yourself not to mention I was
>> not derisive of your qualifications as you were mine.
>> I guess flaming is ok since you seem to run the site.
>> I thought that the idea here was to help not ridicule however I noticed
>> that this is not the case.
>> Paul the Skeptic
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 8:10 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Well Mr. Skeptic, since I don't have a PhD I disagree (B.A., post grad,
>> TX A&M), and I'm not talking about the grand things I'm going to do but
>> the modest things I'm already doing.  Permaculture principles are valid
>> but so called certification is - to be charitable - a waste of paper. The
>> problem is not money since I've done it on a shoestring and lease my place
>> on one acre for $360 mo with good well, and I see thousands of homes in my
>> area with plenty of space for growing without buying land to farm. And
>> under optimal conditions you can make a lot more than $40,000 from an
>> acre. And there are thousands of market growers making money, not less
>> than 5000, and that's public knowledge.
>>>
>>> From where I stand the market crowds are anything but yuppies (have
>> something against yuppies?). We've sold at four different markets and
>> they're mostly older adults who remember what real food tastes like, and
>> many on tight budgets. To continue, having just stated people can't make
>> more than $40,000 from an acre selling to markets, you then claim you will
>> clear $80,000 the first year selling to 2 farmers markets, all from a
>> 32x100 greenhouse (I haven't seen anybody hyping aquaponics in years). To
>> top that off, you seem to say that homemade wells and generating windmills
>> are not an expense (perhaps capital investments in materials don't count).
>> I suspect your PhD is not in accounting.
>>>
>>> You conclude:
>>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over the
>>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed. To
>>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>> of
>>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>>
>>> Millions of people can cut grocery and medical costs and supplement
>> their income now, where they are, by growing food (I include a large
>> portion of the unemployed in that), and home growing is in fact expanding
>> by leaps and bounds as are farmers markets. We don't need to tear down
>> anything. I believe it was Bucky Fuller who wrote that the way to change a
>> system is to build the new within the shell of the old - and make the old
>> irrelevant. And a different approach to food production and consumption
>> will implement itself. I only try to be one of the many helping others to
>> be ready before they are forced to. To imply what I'm actually doing - and
>> promoting - as "lofty ideas" that are somehow impractical to implement, is
>> frankly, bullshit.
>>>
>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>
>>>
>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>>
>>> On 1/13/2011 at 4:09 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, I am aware of all of that. My PhD is in Sustainable Agriculture and
>>>> I am a certified teacher of Permaculture. The problem is still money,
>> not
>>>> technique. Land is still $5-10,000 an acre.
>>>> One can make $40,000 + an acre selling vegetables, more than that and
>> you
>>>> have to jump into selling to chain grocery stores like HEB which puts
>> you
>>>> into the commercial market with minimum quotas etc.
>>>> Want to live on the land and raise a family. Oops, back in the old debt
>>>> game.
>>>> My point is that although it can be done there are probably less than
>> 5000
>>>> families in the US doing it. Maybe that many more that are capable of
>> it.
>>>> Farmers markets, while a great outlet for the small gardner account for
>>>> less than 1% of the market and mostly a yuppie outdoor shopping mart. 
>>>> Now having said all that we will be growing vegetables in a 32x100
>>>> greenhouse using aquaponics and expect to clear $80,000 the first year
>>>> selling to 2 farmers markets. The difference is I am 63 years old, land
>> is
>>>> paid for and I traded for the greenhouse. I drilled my own wells, built
>> my
>>>> own water pumping windmills, wind generators etc.  So no expenses.
>>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over the
>>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed. To
>>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>> of
>>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>>> Like Pogo said. " I have seen the enemy and he is us"
>>>> Paul the Skeptici
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 2:22 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, skeptic, you've hit on the matter that happens to be my pet
>>>> speciality. We know from official statistics that small farmers who do
>> buy
>>>> the machinery and land etc. can hardly make ends meet, so the typical
>>>> family farmer today (what's left of them) has an outside job just to pay
>>>> bills and keep the farm. I've seen a figure of a couple million just to
>>>> get started in farming. And the big corporate farms get subsidies, price
>>>> supports, and crop insurance to sell to the middlemen who set the
>> prices.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the question is where does that leave us. It helps to clearly see
>>>> that box we have to think outside of, and fortunately you do. So don't
>>>> grow wheat to harvest by hand; don't compete with big agribusiness on
>>>> their cheap, poisoned, subsidized commodities; it's a rigged game and
>> the
>>>> house always wins.
>>>>>
>>>>> Grow intensive on small areas at low cost and bypass the middleman by
>>>> selling retail at full price. I do this, no tiller, no help, upscale
>>>> markets for retail prices. You probably can't make a high income this
>> way
>>>> without being in a great year-round climate with lots of upscale
>> customers
>>>> close by and plenty of free family labor. But it is a way millions can
>>>> supplement their income by just growing on the property they already
>> have
>>>> or by working with those nearby who do have room to grow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Intensive isn't original with me, nor other growing methods. The key to
>>>> it is permanent beds and aisles in a limited space. Beds not compacted
>> by
>>>> feet or machines don't need tilling, and don't need to be raised or
>> framed
>>>> if conditions are right. And organic amendments, irrigation, weeding,
>> and
>>>> mulching is cut in half at least - literally - compared to inefficient
>>>> tractor rows. And it's called intensive because you can get a lot more
>>>> production in a given garden area, with equidistant planting (instead of
>>>> 4" between seeds and 18" between rows - makes no sense at all). Like at
>>>> least 2-300 carrots in one 3'x8' bed without crowding. Do the math. You
>>>> also focus on space-saving high value varieties intead of space hogs
>> like
>>>> pumpkins or grains. You use season extension techniques like homemade
>>>> tunnels, greenhouses, cold frames, or row covers. You adapt to your
>>>> climate and beat others to market with early protected starts from seed
>> to
>>>> transplant. I have no experience with brambles
>>>> or
>>>>> orchards or value added products, so I'm not sure how that works in
>>>> this context. There's much more information out there from many
>> sources.
>>>>>
>>>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>>>
>>>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/13/2011 at 12:40 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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