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  • From: gloria@aquaponicfarm.com
  • To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] World Hunger Best Cured by Small-Scale Agriculture
  • Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:03:47 -0600

That is why we grow our own fish food

Gloria

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 14, 2011, at 8:41 AM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:

>
> Just a personal thought, it seems to me that plants that evolved with roots
> in soil shouldn't be growing in water since aerobic microbes that normally
> feed plants can't survive in water. Haven't taken time to research it much
> and aquaponics sounds like an efficient, sustainable system, but a snag
> might be in how the fish are fed. Large scale commercial fish farming has
> got a bad name http://www.worldwatch.org/node/760
> http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/aquafarming.aspx .
>
> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 1/14/2011 at 6:22 AM Emery Mitchamore wrote:
>
>> "Unnatural" is not a very useful way to describe the aquaponics process.
>> It's really a managed ecosystem; not at all like chemical-based
>> hydroponics, and can be very natural. However, the main point I would
>> like to focus on is that intensive vegetable gardening is not incompatible
>> with aquaponics or Permaculture Forest Gardening, for that matter.
>> Although limited by my own time and energy, I will eventually doing all
>> three + chickens and bees. If another venture can be folded in, I'll do
>> that too. As we move forward into trying times, I believe we should be
>> embracing all options.
>>
>> E. E. "Mitch" Mitchamore
>> www.hillcountrynatives.net
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 11:02 PM, Tradingpost wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> But your aquaponic setup is only a small sideline to your buying club
>> which is largely non-local produce, correct? I'd be interested in any
>> sustainable, cost efficient food production system, but I have to be
>> skeptical of farmed fish. Also I understand it's a modified form of
>> hydroponics which I view as unnatural, tho others may see that
>> differently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics
>>>
>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>
>>>
>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>>>
>>> On 1/13/2011 at 8:34 PM Michelle Silva wrote:
>>>
>>>> @ paul (Tradingpost)- I am surprised that you have not heard of people
>>>> "hyping"
>>>> aquaponics in years! There are tons of forums and more and more who are
>>>> growing
>>>> this way every day. It's a very sustainable way to grow and I believe as
>>>> many
>>>> others that may possibly be the best choice when fresh water becomes the
>>>> next
>>>> crisis, (but no need to wait until then!).
>>>>
>>>> I have a backyard aquaponics system that I built in my suburban
>>>> residential
>>>> backyard. I also run a buying club as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> @ Paul the Skeptic- Where are you located? I love growing this way. I
>>>> have over
>>>> 3,000 plants and room for more than twice that on our small half acre
>> lot.
>>>> www.passionforproduce.net
>>>> The pics on the site are older, there are a few newer ones on the
>> "Passion
>>>> for
>>>> Produce" facebook page, including the ones of the hoop houses we put up
>>>> yesterday. (bamboo and pvc).
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Michelle Silva
>>>> Sarasota, Fl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "paul@oneseedling.com" <paul@oneseedling.com>
>>>> To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
>>>> <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>> Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 9:52:06 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] World Hunger Best Cured by Small-Scale
>>>> Agriculture
>>>>
>>>> So, if it is so simple then why is it not working?
>>>> I was trying to point out problems and why the system quit working and
>>>> possible
>>>> solutions, not being sarcastic as yourself not to mention I was not
>>>> derisive of
>>>> your qualifications as you were mine.
>>>> I guess flaming is ok since you seem to run the site.
>>>> I thought that the idea here was to help not ridicule however I noticed
>>>> that
>>>> this is not the case.
>>>>
>>>> Paul the Skeptic
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 8:10 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well Mr. Skeptic, since I don't have a PhD I disagree (B.A., post grad,
>>>> TX
>>>>> A&M), and I'm not talking about the grand things I'm going to do but
>> the
>>>> modest
>>>>> things I'm already doing. Permaculture principles are valid but so
>>>> called
>>>>> certification is - to be charitable - a waste of paper. The problem is
>>>> not money
>>>>> since I've done it on a shoestring and lease my place on one acre for
>>>> $360 mo
>>>>> with good well, and I see thousands of homes in my area with plenty of
>>>> space for
>>>>> growing without buying land to farm. And under optimal conditions you
>> can
>>>> make a
>>>>> lot more than $40,000 from an acre. And there are thousands of market
>>>> growers
>>>>> making money, not less than 5000, and that's public knowledge.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From where I stand the market crowds are anything but yuppies (have
>>>> something
>>>>> against yuppies?). We've sold at four different markets and they're
>>>> mostly older
>>>>> adults who remember what real food tastes like, and many on tight
>>>> budgets. To
>>>>> continue, having just stated people can't make more than $40,000 from
>> an
>>>> acre
>>>>> selling to markets, you then claim you will clear $80,000 the first
>> year
>>>> selling
>>>>> to 2 farmers markets, all from a 32x100 greenhouse (I haven't seen
>>>> anybody
>>>>> hyping aquaponics in years). To top that off, you seem to say that
>>>> homemade
>>>>> wells and generating windmills are not an expense (perhaps capital
>>>> investments
>>>>> in materials don't count). I suspect your PhD is not in accounting.
>>>>>
>>>>> You conclude:
>>>>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over
>> the
>>>>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed.
>> To
>>>>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>>>> of
>>>>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Millions of people can cut grocery and medical costs and supplement
>>>> their
>>>>> income now, where they are, by growing food (I include a large portion
>> of
>>>> the
>>>>> unemployed in that), and home growing is in fact expanding by leaps and
>>>> bounds
>>>>> as are farmers markets. We don't need to tear down anything. I believe
>> it
>>>> was
>>>>> Bucky Fuller who wrote that the way to change a system is to build the
>>>> new
>>>>> within the shell of the old - and make the old irrelevant. And a
>>>> different
>>>>> approach to food production and consumption will implement itself. I
>> only
>>>> try to
>>>>> be one of the many helping others to be ready before they are forced
>> to.
>>>> To
>>>>> imply what I'm actually doing - and promoting - as "lofty ideas" that
>> are
>>>>> somehow impractical to implement, is frankly, bullshit.
>>>>>
>>>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/13/2011 at 4:09 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I am aware of all of that. My PhD is in Sustainable Agriculture
>> and
>>>>>> I am a certified teacher of Permaculture. The problem is still money,
>>>> not
>>>>>> technique. Land is still $5-10,000 an acre.
>>>>>> One can make $40,000 + an acre selling vegetables, more than that and
>>>> you
>>>>>> have to jump into selling to chain grocery stores like HEB which puts
>>>> you
>>>>>> into the commercial market with minimum quotas etc.
>>>>>> Want to live on the land and raise a family. Oops, back in the old
>> debt
>>>>>> game.
>>>>>> My point is that although it can be done there are probably less than
>>>> 5000
>>>>>> families in the US doing it. Maybe that many more that are capable of
>>>> it.
>>>>>> Farmers markets, while a great outlet for the small gardner account
>> for
>>>>>> less than 1% of the market and mostly a yuppie outdoor shopping mart.
>>
>>>>>> Now having said all that we will be growing vegetables in a 32x100
>>>>>> greenhouse using aquaponics and expect to clear $80,000 the first year
>>>>>> selling to 2 farmers markets. The difference is I am 63 years old,
>> land
>>>> is
>>>>>> paid for and I traded for the greenhouse. I drilled my own wells,
>> built
>>>> my
>>>>>> own water pumping windmills, wind generators etc. So no expenses.
>>>>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over
>> the
>>>>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed.
>> To
>>>>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>>>> of
>>>>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>>>>> Like Pogo said. " I have seen the enemy and he is us"
>>>>>> Paul the Skeptici
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 2:22 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, skeptic, you've hit on the matter that happens to be my pet
>>>>>> speciality. We know from official statistics that small farmers who do
>>>> buy
>>>>>> the machinery and land etc. can hardly make ends meet, so the typical
>>>>>> family farmer today (what's left of them) has an outside job just to
>> pay
>>>>>> bills and keep the farm. I've seen a figure of a couple million just
>> to
>>>>>> get started in farming. And the big corporate farms get subsidies,
>> price
>>>>>> supports, and crop insurance to sell to the middlemen who set the
>>>> prices.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the question is where does that leave us. It helps to clearly see
>>>>>> that box we have to think outside of, and fortunately you do. So don't
>>>>>> grow wheat to harvest by hand; don't compete with big agribusiness on
>>>>>> their cheap, poisoned, subsidized commodities; it's a rigged game and
>>>> the
>>>>>> house always wins.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Grow intensive on small areas at low cost and bypass the middleman by
>>>>>> selling retail at full price. I do this, no tiller, no help, upscale
>>>>>> markets for retail prices. You probably can't make a high income this
>>>> way
>>>>>> without being in a great year-round climate with lots of upscale
>>>> customers
>>>>>> close by and plenty of free family labor. But it is a way millions can
>>>>>> supplement their income by just growing on the property they already
>>>> have
>>>>>> or by working with those nearby who do have room to grow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Intensive isn't original with me, nor other growing methods. The key
>> to
>>>>>> it is permanent beds and aisles in a limited space. Beds not compacted
>>>> by
>>>>>> feet or machines don't need tilling, and don't need to be raised or
>>>> framed
>>>>>> if conditions are right. And organic amendments, irrigation, weeding,
>>>> and
>>>>>> mulching is cut in half at least - literally - compared to inefficient
>>>>>> tractor rows. And it's called intensive because you can get a lot more
>>>>>> production in a given garden area, with equidistant planting (instead
>> of
>>>>>> 4" between seeds and 18" between rows - makes no sense at all). Like
>> at
>>>>>> least 2-300 carrots in one 3'x8' bed without crowding. Do the math.
>> You
>>>>>> also focus on space-saving high value varieties intead of space hogs
>>>> like
>>>>>> pumpkins or grains. You use season extension techniques like homemade
>>>>>> tunnels, greenhouses, cold frames, or row covers. You adapt to your
>>>>>> climate and beat others to market with early protected starts from
>> seed
>>>> to
>>>>>> transplant. I have no experience with brambles
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> orchards or value added products, so I'm not sure how that works in
>>>>>> this context. There's much more information out there from many
>>>> sources.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/13/2011 at 12:40 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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