Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net>]

But your aquaponic setup is only a small sideline to your buying club which 
is largely non-local produce, correct? I'd be interested in any sustainable, 
cost efficient food production system, but I have to be skeptical of farmed 
fish. Also I understand it's a modified form of hydroponics which I view as 
unnatural, tho others may see that differently.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics

paul tradingpost@lobo.net


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 1/13/2011 at 8:34 PM Michelle Silva wrote:

>@ paul (Tradingpost)-  I am surprised that you have not heard of people
>"hyping"
>aquaponics in years! There are tons of forums and more and more who are
>growing
>this way every day. It's a very sustainable way to grow and I believe as
>many
>others that may possibly be the best choice when fresh water becomes the
>next
>crisis, (but no need to wait until then!).
>
>I have a backyard aquaponics system that I built in my suburban
>residential
>backyard. I also run a buying club as well.
>
>
>@ Paul the Skeptic- Where are you located? I love growing this way. I
>have over
>3,000 plants and room for more than twice that on our small  half acre lot.
>www.passionforproduce.net
>The pics on the site are older, there are a few newer ones on the "Passion
>for
>Produce" facebook page, including the ones of the hoop houses we put up
>yesterday. (bamboo and pvc).
>
>Best Regards,
>Michelle Silva
>Sarasota, Fl
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: "paul@oneseedling.com" <paul@oneseedling.com>
>To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
><livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 9:52:06 PM
>Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] World Hunger Best Cured by Small-Scale
>Agriculture
>
>So, if it is so simple then why is it not working?
>I was trying to point out problems and why the system quit working and
>possible
>solutions, not being sarcastic as yourself not to mention I was not
>derisive of
>your qualifications as you were mine.
>I guess flaming is ok since you seem to run the site.
>I thought that the idea here was to help not ridicule however I noticed
>that
>this is not the case.
>
>Paul the Skeptic
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Jan 13, 2011, at 8:10 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well Mr. Skeptic, since I don't have a PhD I disagree (B.A., post grad,
>TX
>>A&M), and I'm not talking about the grand things I'm going to do but the
>modest
>>things I'm already doing.  Permaculture principles are valid but so
>called
>>certification is - to be charitable - a waste of paper. The problem is
>not money
>>since I've done it on a shoestring and lease my place on one acre for
>$360 mo
>>with good well, and I see thousands of homes in my area with plenty of
>space for
>>growing without buying land to farm. And under optimal conditions you can
>make a
>>lot more than $40,000 from an acre. And there are thousands of market
>growers
>>making money, not less than 5000, and that's public knowledge.
>>
>>
>> From where I stand the market crowds are anything but yuppies (have
>something
>>against yuppies?). We've sold at four different markets and they're
>mostly older
>>adults who remember what real food tastes like, and many on tight
>budgets. To
>>continue, having just stated people can't make more than $40,000 from an
>acre
>>selling to markets, you then claim you will clear $80,000 the first year
>selling
>>to 2 farmers markets, all from a 32x100 greenhouse (I haven't seen
>anybody
>>hyping aquaponics in years). To top that off, you seem to say that
>homemade
>>wells and generating windmills are not an expense (perhaps capital
>investments
>>in materials don't count). I suspect your PhD is not in accounting.
>>
>> You conclude:
>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over the
>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed. To
>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>of
>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>
>> Millions of people can cut grocery and medical costs and supplement
>their
>>income now, where they are, by growing food (I include a large portion of
>the
>>unemployed in that), and home growing is in fact expanding by leaps and
>bounds
>>as are farmers markets. We don't need to tear down anything. I believe it
>was
>>Bucky Fuller who wrote that the way to change a system is to build the
>new
>>within the shell of the old - and make the old irrelevant. And a
>different
>>approach to food production and consumption will implement itself. I only
>try to
>>be one of the many helping others to be ready before they are forced to.
>To
>>imply what I'm actually doing - and promoting - as "lofty ideas" that are
>>somehow impractical to implement, is frankly, bullshit.
>>
>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>
>>
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>
>> On 1/13/2011 at 4:09 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I am aware of all of that. My PhD is in Sustainable Agriculture and
>>> I am a certified teacher of Permaculture. The problem is still money,
>not
>>> technique. Land is still $5-10,000 an acre.
>>> One can make $40,000 + an acre selling vegetables, more than that and
>you
>>> have to jump into selling to chain grocery stores like HEB which puts
>you
>>> into the commercial market with minimum quotas etc.
>>> Want to live on the land and raise a family. Oops, back in the old debt
>>> game.
>>> My point is that although it can be done there are probably less than
>5000
>>> families in the US doing it. Maybe that many more that are capable of
>it.
>>> Farmers markets, while a great outlet for the small gardner account for
>>> less than 1% of the market and mostly a yuppie outdoor shopping mart.
>>> Now having said all that we will be growing vegetables in a 32x100
>>> greenhouse using aquaponics and expect to clear $80,000 the first year
>>> selling to 2 farmers markets. The difference is I am 63 years old, land
>is
>>> paid for and I traded for the greenhouse. I drilled my own wells, built
>my
>>> own water pumping windmills, wind generators etc.  So no expenses.
>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over the
>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed. To
>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>of
>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>> Like Pogo said. " I have seen the enemy and he is us"
>>> Paul the Skeptici
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 2:22 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, skeptic, you've hit on the matter that happens to be my pet
>>> speciality. We know from official statistics that small farmers who do
>buy
>>> the machinery and land etc. can hardly make ends meet, so the typical
>>> family farmer today (what's left of them) has an outside job just to pay
>>> bills and keep the farm. I've seen a figure of a couple million just to
>>> get started in farming. And the big corporate farms get subsidies, price
>>> supports, and crop insurance to sell to the middlemen who set the
>prices.
>>>>
>>>> And the question is where does that leave us. It helps to clearly see
>>> that box we have to think outside of, and fortunately you do. So don't
>>> grow wheat to harvest by hand; don't compete with big agribusiness on
>>> their cheap, poisoned, subsidized commodities; it's a rigged game and
>the
>>> house always wins.
>>>>
>>>> Grow intensive on small areas at low cost and bypass the middleman by
>>> selling retail at full price. I do this, no tiller, no help, upscale
>>> markets for retail prices. You probably can't make a high income this
>way
>>> without being in a great year-round climate with lots of upscale
>customers
>>> close by and plenty of free family labor. But it is a way millions can
>>> supplement their income by just growing on the property they already
>have
>>> or by working with those nearby who do have room to grow.
>>>>
>>>> Intensive isn't original with me, nor other growing methods. The key to
>>> it is permanent beds and aisles in a limited space. Beds not compacted
>by
>>> feet or machines don't need tilling, and don't need to be raised or
>framed
>>> if conditions are right. And organic amendments, irrigation, weeding,
>and
>>> mulching is cut in half at least - literally - compared to inefficient
>>> tractor rows. And it's called intensive because you can get a lot more
>>> production in a given garden area, with equidistant planting (instead of
>>> 4" between seeds and 18" between rows - makes no sense at all). Like at
>>> least 2-300 carrots in one 3'x8' bed without crowding. Do the math. You
>>> also focus on space-saving high value varieties intead of space hogs
>like
>>> pumpkins or grains. You use season extension techniques like homemade
>>> tunnels, greenhouses, cold frames, or row covers. You adapt to your
>>> climate and beat others to market with early protected starts from seed
>to
>>> transplant. I have no experience with brambles
>>> or
>>>> orchards or value added products, so I'm not sure how that works in
>>> this context. There's much more information out there from many
>sources.
>>>>
>>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>>
>>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>>>
>>>> On 1/13/2011 at 12:40 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>>>
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>>
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