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  • From: Emery Mitchamore <emitch@att.net>
  • To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] World Hunger Best Cured by Small-Scale Agriculture
  • Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 06:22:16 -0600

"Unnatural" is not a very useful way to describe the aquaponics process.
It's really a managed ecosystem; not at all like chemical-based hydroponics,
and can be very natural. However, the main point I would like to focus on is
that intensive vegetable gardening is not incompatible with aquaponics or
Permaculture Forest Gardening, for that matter. Although limited by my own
time and energy, I will eventually doing all three + chickens and bees. If
another venture can be folded in, I'll do that too. As we move forward into
trying times, I believe we should be embracing all options.

E. E. "Mitch" Mitchamore
www.hillcountrynatives.net



On Jan 13, 2011, at 11:02 PM, Tradingpost wrote:

>
> But your aquaponic setup is only a small sideline to your buying club which
> is largely non-local produce, correct? I'd be interested in any
> sustainable, cost efficient food production system, but I have to be
> skeptical of farmed fish. Also I understand it's a modified form of
> hydroponics which I view as unnatural, tho others may see that differently.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics
>
> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>
> On 1/13/2011 at 8:34 PM Michelle Silva wrote:
>
>> @ paul (Tradingpost)- I am surprised that you have not heard of people
>> "hyping"
>> aquaponics in years! There are tons of forums and more and more who are
>> growing
>> this way every day. It's a very sustainable way to grow and I believe as
>> many
>> others that may possibly be the best choice when fresh water becomes the
>> next
>> crisis, (but no need to wait until then!).
>>
>> I have a backyard aquaponics system that I built in my suburban
>> residential
>> backyard. I also run a buying club as well.
>>
>>
>> @ Paul the Skeptic- Where are you located? I love growing this way. I
>> have over
>> 3,000 plants and room for more than twice that on our small half acre lot.
>> www.passionforproduce.net
>> The pics on the site are older, there are a few newer ones on the "Passion
>> for
>> Produce" facebook page, including the ones of the hoop houses we put up
>> yesterday. (bamboo and pvc).
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Michelle Silva
>> Sarasota, Fl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "paul@oneseedling.com" <paul@oneseedling.com>
>> To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
>> <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 9:52:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] World Hunger Best Cured by Small-Scale
>> Agriculture
>>
>> So, if it is so simple then why is it not working?
>> I was trying to point out problems and why the system quit working and
>> possible
>> solutions, not being sarcastic as yourself not to mention I was not
>> derisive of
>> your qualifications as you were mine.
>> I guess flaming is ok since you seem to run the site.
>> I thought that the idea here was to help not ridicule however I noticed
>> that
>> this is not the case.
>>
>> Paul the Skeptic
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 8:10 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Well Mr. Skeptic, since I don't have a PhD I disagree (B.A., post grad,
>> TX
>>> A&M), and I'm not talking about the grand things I'm going to do but the
>> modest
>>> things I'm already doing. Permaculture principles are valid but so
>> called
>>> certification is - to be charitable - a waste of paper. The problem is
>> not money
>>> since I've done it on a shoestring and lease my place on one acre for
>> $360 mo
>>> with good well, and I see thousands of homes in my area with plenty of
>> space for
>>> growing without buying land to farm. And under optimal conditions you can
>> make a
>>> lot more than $40,000 from an acre. And there are thousands of market
>> growers
>>> making money, not less than 5000, and that's public knowledge.
>>>
>>>
>>> From where I stand the market crowds are anything but yuppies (have
>> something
>>> against yuppies?). We've sold at four different markets and they're
>> mostly older
>>> adults who remember what real food tastes like, and many on tight
>> budgets. To
>>> continue, having just stated people can't make more than $40,000 from an
>> acre
>>> selling to markets, you then claim you will clear $80,000 the first year
>> selling
>>> to 2 farmers markets, all from a 32x100 greenhouse (I haven't seen
>> anybody
>>> hyping aquaponics in years). To top that off, you seem to say that
>> homemade
>>> wells and generating windmills are not an expense (perhaps capital
>> investments
>>> in materials don't count). I suspect your PhD is not in accounting.
>>>
>>> You conclude:
>>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over the
>>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed. To
>>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>> of
>>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>>
>>> Millions of people can cut grocery and medical costs and supplement
>> their
>>> income now, where they are, by growing food (I include a large portion of
>> the
>>> unemployed in that), and home growing is in fact expanding by leaps and
>> bounds
>>> as are farmers markets. We don't need to tear down anything. I believe it
>> was
>>> Bucky Fuller who wrote that the way to change a system is to build the
>> new
>>> within the shell of the old - and make the old irrelevant. And a
>> different
>>> approach to food production and consumption will implement itself. I only
>> try to
>>> be one of the many helping others to be ready before they are forced to.
>> To
>>> imply what I'm actually doing - and promoting - as "lofty ideas" that are
>>> somehow impractical to implement, is frankly, bullshit.
>>>
>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>
>>>
>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>>>
>>> On 1/13/2011 at 4:09 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, I am aware of all of that. My PhD is in Sustainable Agriculture and
>>>> I am a certified teacher of Permaculture. The problem is still money,
>> not
>>>> technique. Land is still $5-10,000 an acre.
>>>> One can make $40,000 + an acre selling vegetables, more than that and
>> you
>>>> have to jump into selling to chain grocery stores like HEB which puts
>> you
>>>> into the commercial market with minimum quotas etc.
>>>> Want to live on the land and raise a family. Oops, back in the old debt
>>>> game.
>>>> My point is that although it can be done there are probably less than
>> 5000
>>>> families in the US doing it. Maybe that many more that are capable of
>> it.
>>>> Farmers markets, while a great outlet for the small gardner account for
>>>> less than 1% of the market and mostly a yuppie outdoor shopping mart.
>>>> Now having said all that we will be growing vegetables in a 32x100
>>>> greenhouse using aquaponics and expect to clear $80,000 the first year
>>>> selling to 2 farmers markets. The difference is I am 63 years old, land
>> is
>>>> paid for and I traded for the greenhouse. I drilled my own wells, built
>> my
>>>> own water pumping windmills, wind generators etc. So no expenses.
>>>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over the
>>>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed. To
>>>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas
>> of
>>>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it.
>>>> Like Pogo said. " I have seen the enemy and he is us"
>>>> Paul the Skeptici
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 2:22 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, skeptic, you've hit on the matter that happens to be my pet
>>>> speciality. We know from official statistics that small farmers who do
>> buy
>>>> the machinery and land etc. can hardly make ends meet, so the typical
>>>> family farmer today (what's left of them) has an outside job just to pay
>>>> bills and keep the farm. I've seen a figure of a couple million just to
>>>> get started in farming. And the big corporate farms get subsidies, price
>>>> supports, and crop insurance to sell to the middlemen who set the
>> prices.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the question is where does that leave us. It helps to clearly see
>>>> that box we have to think outside of, and fortunately you do. So don't
>>>> grow wheat to harvest by hand; don't compete with big agribusiness on
>>>> their cheap, poisoned, subsidized commodities; it's a rigged game and
>> the
>>>> house always wins.
>>>>>
>>>>> Grow intensive on small areas at low cost and bypass the middleman by
>>>> selling retail at full price. I do this, no tiller, no help, upscale
>>>> markets for retail prices. You probably can't make a high income this
>> way
>>>> without being in a great year-round climate with lots of upscale
>> customers
>>>> close by and plenty of free family labor. But it is a way millions can
>>>> supplement their income by just growing on the property they already
>> have
>>>> or by working with those nearby who do have room to grow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Intensive isn't original with me, nor other growing methods. The key to
>>>> it is permanent beds and aisles in a limited space. Beds not compacted
>> by
>>>> feet or machines don't need tilling, and don't need to be raised or
>> framed
>>>> if conditions are right. And organic amendments, irrigation, weeding,
>> and
>>>> mulching is cut in half at least - literally - compared to inefficient
>>>> tractor rows. And it's called intensive because you can get a lot more
>>>> production in a given garden area, with equidistant planting (instead of
>>>> 4" between seeds and 18" between rows - makes no sense at all). Like at
>>>> least 2-300 carrots in one 3'x8' bed without crowding. Do the math. You
>>>> also focus on space-saving high value varieties intead of space hogs
>> like
>>>> pumpkins or grains. You use season extension techniques like homemade
>>>> tunnels, greenhouses, cold frames, or row covers. You adapt to your
>>>> climate and beat others to market with early protected starts from seed
>> to
>>>> transplant. I have no experience with brambles
>>>> or
>>>>> orchards or value added products, so I'm not sure how that works in
>>>> this context. There's much more information out there from many
>> sources.
>>>>>
>>>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>>>>
>>>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/13/2011 at 12:40 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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