Healthy soil and sustainable growing

[paul@oneseedling.com]

So, if it is so simple then why is it not working?  
I was trying to point out problems and why the system quit working and 
possible solutions, not being sarcastic as yourself not to mention I was not 
derisive of your qualifications as you were mine.
I guess flaming is ok since you seem to run the site. 
I thought that the idea here was to help not ridicule however I noticed that 
this is not the case. 
Paul the Skeptic 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 13, 2011, at 8:10 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:

> 
> Well Mr. Skeptic, since I don't have a PhD I disagree (B.A., post grad, TX 
> A&M), and I'm not talking about the grand things I'm going to do but the 
> modest things I'm already doing.  Permaculture principles are valid but so 
> called certification is - to be charitable - a waste of paper. The problem 
> is not money since I've done it on a shoestring and lease my place on one 
> acre for $360 mo with good well, and I see thousands of homes in my area 
> with plenty of space for growing without buying land to farm. And under 
> optimal conditions you can make a lot more than $40,000 from an acre. And 
> there are thousands of market growers making money, not less than 5000, and 
> that's public knowledge. 
> 
> From where I stand the market crowds are anything but yuppies (have 
> something against yuppies?). We've sold at four different markets and 
> they're mostly older adults who remember what real food tastes like, and 
> many on tight budgets. To continue, having just stated people can't make 
> more than $40,000 from an acre selling to markets, you then claim you will 
> clear $80,000 the first year selling to 2 farmers markets, all from a 
> 32x100 greenhouse (I haven't seen anybody hyping aquaponics in years). To 
> top that off, you seem to say that homemade wells and generating windmills 
> are not an expense (perhaps capital investments in materials don't count). 
> I suspect your PhD is not in accounting.
> 
> You conclude:
>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over the
>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed. To
>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas of
>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it. 
> 
> Millions of people can cut grocery and medical costs and supplement their 
> income now, where they are, by growing food (I include a large portion of 
> the unemployed in that), and home growing is in fact expanding by leaps and 
> bounds as are farmers markets. We don't need to tear down anything. I 
> believe it was Bucky Fuller who wrote that the way to change a system is to 
> build the new within the shell of the old - and make the old irrelevant. 
> And a different approach to food production and consumption will implement 
> itself. I only try to be one of the many helping others to be ready before 
> they are forced to. To imply what I'm actually doing - and promoting - as 
> "lofty ideas" that are somehow impractical to implement, is frankly, 
> bullshit.
> 
> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> 
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 1/13/2011 at 4:09 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
> 
>> Yes, I am aware of all of that. My PhD is in Sustainable Agriculture and
>> I am a certified teacher of Permaculture. The problem is still money, not
>> technique. Land is still $5-10,000 an acre. 
>> One can make $40,000 + an acre selling vegetables, more than that and you
>> have to jump into selling to chain grocery stores like HEB which puts you
>> into the commercial market with minimum quotas etc. 
>> Want to live on the land and raise a family. Oops, back in the old debt
>> game. 
>> My point is that although it can be done there are probably less than 5000
>> families in the US doing it. Maybe that many more that are capable of it. 
>> Farmers markets, while a great outlet for the small gardner account for
>> less than 1% of the market and mostly a yuppie outdoor shopping mart.  
>> Now having said all that we will be growing vegetables in a 32x100
>> greenhouse using aquaponics and expect to clear $80,000 the first year
>> selling to 2 farmers markets. The difference is I am 63 years old, land is
>> paid for and I traded for the greenhouse. I drilled my own wells, built my
>> own water pumping windmills, wind generators etc.  So no expenses. 
>> The point of all of this is to make systems like this work all over the
>> country the old supply system has to change, be torn down, destroyed. To
>> do that will bring the system down. It's one thing to have lofty ideas of
>> simplification, but a whole other thing to implement it. 
>> Like Pogo said. " I have seen the enemy and he is us"
>> Paul the Skeptici
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jan 13, 2011, at 2:22 PM, "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Well, skeptic, you've hit on the matter that happens to be my pet
>> speciality. We know from official statistics that small farmers who do buy
>> the machinery and land etc. can hardly make ends meet, so the typical
>> family farmer today (what's left of them) has an outside job just to pay
>> bills and keep the farm. I've seen a figure of a couple million just to
>> get started in farming. And the big corporate farms get subsidies, price
>> supports, and crop insurance to sell to the middlemen who set the prices. 
>>> 
>>> And the question is where does that leave us. It helps to clearly see
>> that box we have to think outside of, and fortunately you do. So don't
>> grow wheat to harvest by hand; don't compete with big agribusiness on
>> their cheap, poisoned, subsidized commodities; it's a rigged game and the
>> house always wins. 
>>> 
>>> Grow intensive on small areas at low cost and bypass the middleman by
>> selling retail at full price. I do this, no tiller, no help, upscale
>> markets for retail prices. You probably can't make a high income this way
>> without being in a great year-round climate with lots of upscale customers
>> close by and plenty of free family labor. But it is a way millions can
>> supplement their income by just growing on the property they already have
>> or by working with those nearby who do have room to grow. 
>>> 
>>> Intensive isn't original with me, nor other growing methods. The key to
>> it is permanent beds and aisles in a limited space. Beds not compacted by
>> feet or machines don't need tilling, and don't need to be raised or framed
>> if conditions are right. And organic amendments, irrigation, weeding, and
>> mulching is cut in half at least - literally - compared to inefficient
>> tractor rows. And it's called intensive because you can get a lot more
>> production in a given garden area, with equidistant planting (instead of
>> 4" between seeds and 18" between rows - makes no sense at all). Like at
>> least 2-300 carrots in one 3'x8' bed without crowding. Do the math. You
>> also focus on space-saving high value varieties intead of space hogs like
>> pumpkins or grains. You use season extension techniques like homemade
>> tunnels, greenhouses, cold frames, or row covers. You adapt to your
>> climate and beat others to market with early protected starts from seed to
>> transplant. I have no experience with brambles 
>> or
>>> orchards or value added products, so I'm not sure how that works in
>> this context. There's much more information out there from many sources. 
>>> 
>>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>> 
>>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>>> 
>>> On 1/13/2011 at 12:40 PM paul@oneseedling.com wrote:
>>> 
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