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livingontheland - Re: [Livingontheland] Hydroponics & Soil Organisms

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Subject: Healthy soil and sustainable growing

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  • From: "Tradingpost" <tradingpost@lobo.net>
  • To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Hydroponics & Soil Organisms
  • Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:30:23 -0600


I have to take issue with the whole thing. I'm not questioning your
intentions, just your results.

No one can "completely control how much of which nutrients a plant is
offered" , but more importantly no one can know exactly how much of which
nutrients plants need. Further, the science does not exist which can identify
and produce all the useful nutrients. And considering the horrible complexity
of plant biology which is in its scientific infancy, it never will. It's only
recently been accepted that plants can take up complex biochemical molecules
from microbial symbiosis - microbes which do not survive in soilless water.
Of course the businesses selling the nutrient packets claim to know it all.
It is false advertising.

An organic principle is, plants take up the right amount of the right
nutrients all by themselves if they're provided healthy soil. And healthy
soil structure buffers pH from extremes, and retains moisture better and
drains excess better. I'm afraid "organic standards" without healthy soil is
far from traditional organic growing. It may have superior flavor compared to
supermarket baseballs but where I sell our customers gag at the thought of
hydroponic tomatoes - which the stores all carry. In tomato taste-offs nobody
enters hydroponic tomatoes.

As you admit, setup cost is high, so it follows that's a high barrier to
startup growers. I understand your soil problem; ours is far from ideal so we
amend heavily with low cost or free amendments. But we grow intensively in
framed beds, which makes bigger yields at lower cost with less labor, water,
and amendments in far less space. We serve two good sized markets a week all
season from less than one quarter acre. It's a modified Biointensive, with
ridiculously low startup costs, open to almost anyone with the space to grow.
We do our tomatoes and Italian grilling peppers in homemade greenhouses that
extend the growing season on both ends. Good thing since we only have four
months frost free.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 8/13/2009 at 3:22 PM Diane Kann wrote:

>We grow just about everything using hydro or aquaponics. Lettuce,
>spinach,
>and most greens are naturals for water systems, but most plants can be
>grown
>very well, depending on how they are kept. A big advantage of hydroponics
>or aquaponics is that we can completely control how much of which nutrients
>a plant is offered and also the amount of water it receives. Some plants
>do
>best with less nutrient, others more. Some need a lot of water, others
>less. Tomatoes, for instance, are heavy feeders and fruit best when water
>levels are more consistant. We can monitor all of that and ensure best
>conditions. By using separate timers, we can water our tomatoes more than
>our radishes. Everyone gets ideal levels. Our soil here in Florida needs
>a
>great deal of work to grow things well. Our pastures are good, but we
>would
>need to irrigate and heavily fertilize for vegetables. Yes, we are able to
>grow more product in a smaller space (though that is not a huge benefit for
>us as we have 50 acres, except that we can use less shade cloth as needed).
>
>Our big benefits come in the perfection of the product--our customers come
>to us because our product does have superior nutrition and flavor. That
>comes with careful monitoring of the systems, of course and it is very
>possible to water or feed at less or more than optimal amounts (water
>logged
>fruit and veggies are just not that flavorful!!). Soil grown in more
>forgiving in some of this, as it allows for more drainage and plants
>naturally pull in the nutrients they need (assuming they are there and
>assuming that the pH levels are in proper range, etc) But properly done,
>hydoponics is an important growing system that has been proven to be even
>more beneficial in depleted areas.
>As for organic, there are organic fertilizers that some of us use and
>plenty
>of organic pesticide options. We maintain organic standards, in additon to
>being hydroponic. It is actually easier in some ways--since our plants are
>out of the soil, we avoid most soil born pests and disease. Also, we can
>handpick the few windblown weeds that enter the system. The set up cost is
>high for most types of systems and it can be more work than growing in the
>ground. But we see a greater yield and a longer growing season than ground
>methods.
>Is hydroponics for everyone? Probably not. But it can be at least as good
>as ground growing and in some areas, is far superior.
>
>Diane K
>very THANKFUL homeschool Mom to 9 blessings in
>Christmas, FL
>
>On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Tradingpost <tradingpost@lobo.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> But are you growing aquatic plants that naturally grow in water? I've
>> always wondered why people try to grow soil plants in water when the
>produce
>> doesn't taste right or have the same nutritional value. And how the
>downside
>> can justify all the added expense of hydroponics. If you're looking for a
>> genuine space saving system of growing, I have it.
>>
>> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>>
>>
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>>
>> On 8/13/2009 at 5:30 AM Diane Kann wrote:
>>
>> >We do mostly hydroponics using a fish based fertilizer but are steadily
>> >moving toward more aquaponics where living fish feed the plants and the
>> >plants cleanse the water for the fish. A good aquaponics system can be
>a
>> >complete eco-system. For a school project, I might lean more toward the
>> >aquaponics model. Fish can be grown for food (tilapia are popular) or
>> >simply for nutrient production (some use goldfish or koi for straight
>> >production)
>> >
>> >Diane K
>> >very THANKFUL homeschool Mom to 9 blessings in
>> >Christmas, FL
>> >http://hocfarms.com
>> >
>> >On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Marty Kraft <martyk@allspecies.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have been helping a school start a no-till organic garden. Now they
>> >> are applying a for a grant doing hydroponics. Are there hydroponic
>> >> systems that use various beneficial microorganisms to feed the
>> >> plants? I must admit to some prejudice about avoiding soil to produce
>> >> plants but have a small window of open mindedness on the subject. I
>> >> know most are busy but experience or references i would be
>appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Marty Kraft
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> Livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
>> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/livingontheland
>> >>
>> >
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>>
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