Healthy soil and sustainable growing

["Dean" <andeanfx@midrivers.com>]

This has to do mostly with owning vs. renting.  I am not anti government but 
I am anti big government which we do have in this country.  I don't have one 
problem that I can't handle, that is not caused by government.

If a person does not own his land how does he save money to purchase when 
the return on a savings account or other investments are so despicably low 
and costs such as food, fuel and medical coverage so high?

If some one else can take something away from "you" do "you" own it?  No. 
So, if you (please understand "you" means each of us an not anyone 
specifically) don't pay your annul rent (property tax) will the land that 
you think you own be taken away from you?  Yes.  If I borrow $1,000 from my 
buddy George and go buy a used car do I own the car?  No, George owns the 
car because you can't buy anything with something you don't own.  Actually, 
this story would be more accurate told as master and servant (slave) as We 
the People in this country do not have the status of ownership.  Now, 
suppose I go out and plunk down two green Ben Franklins for a washer and 
dryer (used of course, Paul :-)), do I own that new to me washer and dryer? 
No.  Why?   Because I didn't own the two green Ben's I thought I bought them 
with.  They belong to the Federal Reserve (not part of the government) and 
are ONLY LOANED to us through the Federal government.  I agree with, I think 
it was Ken, maybe Mitch who commented on not wanting to spend 10 years 
improving the ground to have it covered by a mall.  That is one of the 
drawbacks of "ownership", but if we don't own it anyway how much does it 
matter?  I don't know.  You can buy it with borrowed FRN's (Federal Reserve 
Notes) pay the annual rent and maybe make it through.  Personally I think 
there is a real high likelihood that there will be enough of an economic 
collapse in this country that martial law will be imposed then all bets on 
"ownership" are off.  Especially regarding those of us who are politically 
incorrect.  As for having the land covered up by a mall, stay out of the 
path of "progress".

What if we look at the money freed up by renting rather then deluding 
ourselves into thinking we own anything?  It used to be popular to talk of 
having a Swiss bank account for keeping the millions I was of course going 
to make in the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.  As the reality was 
turning into the Land of the Fee and Home of the Slave I turned to redress 
of government.  Well, that led to some visits to the very secure places as 
well as more SchoolofHardKnocks.edu.  Then a couple very significant things 
happened.  Both my and my wife's parents were aging and needed help so we 
moved from the west coast back to the mountain states.  My parents went to a 
retirement home leaving me (and two siblings) .52 acres, Wife's dad didn't 
want to do same so we put a (his) new manufactured home on my/our land.  He 
didn't trust us enough to sign the house over to us and we didn't trust him 
enough to sign the land over to him.  This was in the county so no building 
permit was required and since I didn't own the house there was nothing built 
on my land.  Father-in law passed away, leaving the house to my wife.  The 
county took exception and fined me $50,000, I took exception, sold the house 
and moved.  In the mean time I came down with a very horrific (uninsured) 
staph infection which left me in a wheel chair on SSI disability and almost 
$400,000 in the red.  More than you wanted to know?, for some possibly but 
here is a reason, actually a couple reasons to tell you this.  First, the 
money from the house and land, barely into 6 figures after paying my brother 
and sister-in-law their portion of the land money (their inheritance) turned 
us toward the off shore world.

Since you have read this far I should comment on the hospital bill.  We were 
working on paying the outside Dr.'s and not even yet thinking about paying 
the hospital.  One day I got a call from a gal with the hospital who told me 
if I qualified, one of the pharmaceutical companies would forgive the cost 
of a particular medication which they had given me.  On a .4 mil bill it 
seemed a bit insignificant but when she persisted I asked how many shots 
they had given me, 12.  Still didn't seem like a lot but then she told me 
they were $3,500 each.  My sympathy toward the hospital decreased.  Had they 
saved my life, yes.  Did they almost kill me with their medications, yes. 
Actually, I died once but it didn't hold.  The interesting thing we learned 
is that if nothing is paid on a hospital bill for one year 90% of it is 
picked up by large businesses as tax write-offs.  I need to digress a bit 
again to something people need to be aware of if they are going to live on 
the land in this country.  The U.S. Constitution allows for only 3 instance 
where the gov. can interfere with the people.  Law, equity and admiralty. 
Last first, admiralty deals with the high seas where it was extremely 
dangers if the crew mutinied so the captain of the vessel was give very 
broad powers. Should not apply to us.  Law, requires a flesh and blood 
damaged party (not a corporation, even the government) who can sit on the 
witness stand and testify as to how I damaged then and be cross examined by 
me.  Equity, required a contract which I have entered into, knowingly, 
voluntarily and intentionally with another person and then not kept my end 
of the bargain.   The reason I digressed here is simply that if the 10% is 
turned over to collection they have no grounds for trying to collect from 
you since you have not entered into any sort of agreement with them.  Oh, 
what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

Feel like I am about as long winded (tough fingered) as Paul.

I am getting close to closing the circle here. Getting back to the money 
there are certain things I cannot say, due to non-disclosure statements, 
unless on a one to one basis but if one were to go to the web site of the 
European banks essentially all of them will have a disclaimer that they 
cannot make their, products, as they are called available to citizens of the 
U.S.  That gets one's curiosity (and ire) up real quick.  However, it means 
just what it says.  It does not mean we cannot seek out their products on 
our own.  There are products which we cannot use while in this country but 
there are products which are a whole big bunch better than what we are 
offered here.  Take for example an account returning 10%, we have some 
making considerably more and some less.  To figure the return on say $1,000 
put 1000 in the trusty calculator and multiply it times 1.10.  The "1" adds 
in the current principle and the ".10" figures the gain on the new balance. 
Do that 12 times for one year, 24 for 2 etc.  Why 12, 24 etc..  Because that 
10% is per month not per year.  Try 1% per day compounded daily 20 times per 
month as there are roughly 20 business days in a month.  Take a minute, push 
some buttons on the calculator, let it soak in.

Back to us.  Yes, we are renting.  At this time we are in a very nice (has 
lots of character) house we "pay" $625.00/month for the use of.  We are 
living very frugally, not only because that is the way we should live but 
because we are making more money from the investment of the remains of the 
house money than we have made in many years and do not want to take it out. 
We have a wood stove which is good as it is presently 4 degrees on the wrong 
side of zero.  Come spring, (I think it will return) we will, once again, be 
able to plant the small garden space.

Do we own it?  No.  Are we comfortable? yes.  Can we improve it?  yes.  Are 
we secure?  Probably as much as most other people.  Are we being left alone? 
yes, we are out of town and there are only 3 houses, one of which is not 
occupied, beyond us down the road.

To close the circle; are we going to come out ahead for renting.  I don't 
know as the fat lady has not yet sung but for now it is getting us ahead 
whereas we would have been marking time had we not sold the house.

I hope this helps someone as I am sure it has compounded the confusion of 
others, but it needed to be brought out.

Dean



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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
To: <emitch@att.net>; <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] New Farmers


> Trying to keep this brief, personally I wouldn't buy a new truck under any
> circumstances. I don't buy anything new if I can avoid it. I hope your
> health allows you to stay with us as long as we're around. You've got a
> point about health insurance with a small business, but the millions who
> don't have it anyway, or millions more with paper thin coverage won't have
> good health insurance no matter what they do. As you pointed out it would
> help for someone in the family to have good insurance. I'd also argue that
> there are millions of people out there who don't have or can't get 
> "secure"
> jobs or anything like it, and many have small acreage and could learn the
> business of growing and retailing food crops. Let's look at that need for
> about a million small farmers age 25 - 30 to make a real future. Actually
> they don't need to feed 200+ people. Most of those 200+ need to be growing
> their own to some extent. One grower feeding 20 or 30 others might make a
> very good living - using intelligent, sustainable growing techniques. So
> that's my take on this. This is a highly relevant exchange, even critical
> to our future. Thanks for the exchange.
>
> paul tradingpost@lobo.net
>
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
> On 11/30/2007 at 5:09 PM E. E. Mitchamore Jr wrote:
>
> > I think some of your replies could use some enlargement.
> >
> > 1) Debt is a real drag on a new enterprise.  True, almost everyone has
> > some debt, but it MUST be minimized, or it will drag you down, both
> > emotionally and fiscally.  Debt is probably the biggest cause of farm (or
> > business), failures, and it's not just due to fertilizer.  One new truck
> > can put you in the red.
> >
> > 2) Health insurance is MORE important to a small business than it is to an
> > individual.  I was diagnosed with leukemia this summer, so it's much on my
> > mind.  If you are injured or get sick, you not only have the illness and
> > the bills to deal with, you also lose your business.
> >
> > 3) "Secure" job - I should have said a capability that people will pay
> > for, rather than the traditional usage of the word "job".  Lots of temp
> > jobs would be good experience and networking for a would-be farmer.
> >
> > 4) Lots of people are doing it, true, but we need about a million small
> > farmers age 25 - 30 to make a real future.  Each needs to feed 200+
> > people.  I can't feed 2, much less 200.
> >
> > E. E. "Mitch" Mitchamore
> > www.hillcountrynatives.biz
> >  ----- Original Message ----- 
> >  From: TradingPostPaul
> >  To: emitch@att.net ; livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> >  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:58 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Farmers, NMSU Discuss Growth
> >
> >
> >
> >  Thanks, I'll answer that.
> >
> >  *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> >
> >  On 11/30/2007 at 12:53 PM E. E. Mitchamore Jr wrote:
> >
> >  >The only way I can imagine that transition, is:
> >  >
> >  >1) You OWN enough land for a home and basic garden/farm.  This can be
> > just
> >  >a few acres, and can be supplemented later with leased land if you
> grow.
> >  Hundreds of thousands own enough land and live on it. Millions more can
> >  grow for their own use.
> >
> >  >2) No debt.
> >
> >  Almost all farmers of every description have some debt, along with
> almost
> >  all families.
> >
> >  >3) At least on person in the family has a secure job with health
> > insurance
> >  >or a home-based profession with flexibility (like a writer).  Outside
> >  >income is important during the early years.
> >
> >  Millions don't have any health insurance now. Hardly a requirement for
> >  going into business. And what job is secure anymore?
> >
> >  >4) At least one person in the family has computer and/or business
> skills
> >  >and the willingness to "keep the books".
> >
> >  Same for any business.
> >
> >  >5) You're all healthy and fit.
> >
> >  Or at least the person doing the work.
> >
> >  >6) You've got some knowledge of what you're getting into.  In my view,
> >  >this takes a few years of gardening and research.
> >
> >  Now this is a good point. Of course with any business startup, you need
> > to
> >  learn the ropes first before committing time and resources.There are
> > plenty
> >  of people with some garden or farming experience who at least know which
> >  end of a shovel goes in the dirt. Many advise starting small with home
> >  growing, not quitting your day job till you know you can run with it. I
> >  agree. At least it can be started on a shoestring if need be. In my case
> >  I've substituted labor for hard cash in several ways. And recouped my
> > cash
> >  investment in the first four months of market. Then you can expand as
> > time
> >  and profits permit. You make mistakes while you're still small so you
> > don't
> >  make them later. And you learn.
> >
> >  The research part: no one should have to do all their own research and
> >  reinvent the wheel. My partner Barb tells how she saw her father's
> garden
> >  and neighbor's gardens as a kid, and they all shared the knowhow and
> >  stories about their produce. It was an immigrant neighborhood, Italian,
> >  Greek, and so forth. And they all grew pretty much the same way with
> > little
> >  money invested and even less work. Their own garden was only dug up at
> > the
> >  beginning but never afterward. They weren't obsessed with weeding. Her
> >  father manured it each year and kept permanent paths to walk on without
> >  compacting the growing areas. No neat rows, no chemicals, no tillers.
> And
> >  always, they cooked from the garden. They grew the varieties handed down
> >  through generations, that stood the test of time. The interesting part
> > is,
> >  that system is identical to the way we're growing now - tho I had to
> slug
> >  through a lot of reading and experimentation to get around to it. In the
> >  end it's not rocket science. Having someone nearby to show you how is
> the
> >  magic short cut.
> >
> >
> >  >Sounds unlikely...................
> >
> >  What's unlikely is a lot of folks like me doing it anyway.
> >  paul tradingpost@lobo.net
> >  -------------------------------------
> >
> >  >E. E. "Mitch" Mitchamore
> >  >www.hillcountrynatives.biz
> >  >  ----- Original Message ----- 
> >  >  From: TradingPostPaul
> >  >  To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
> >  >  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:21 AM
> >  >  Subject: [Livingontheland] Farmers, NMSU Discuss Growth
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
>
>
>
>
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