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Subject: Healthy soil and sustainable growing
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...
- From: Mike E <mike.lists@mlxvi.org>
- To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
- Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...
- Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:02:43 +1300
|
Thanks for the clarification Paul. Even Mollison and Holmgren don't
claim that permaculture is anything new. Mollison goes to length to
explain that all he has done is put together what works in different
parts of the world. When he presents a Permaculture Design Course his
emphasis is on saving the world and he asks his students to go back
home and present a course as soon as possible - or go to somewhere on
earth that is in deep trouble to pass along the message. Given that his requirements for the course are that everything in the manual gets covered there is little likelihood that any course will be presented by a person having experience in everything they lecture on. (I would venture to suggest that most of doesn't even get taught). So his request is not unreasonable. And if the student does go to a new country, his experience will soon outweigh those who practice in their own backyard. Mollison himself is quite disdainful of the way permaculture is presented and commercialised in the US. And I imagine that his complaints would be much the same as those who complain on this list and other lists I have visited. As a comparison, Permaculture Design Courses in my part of the world cost about $NZ1200, which is about $US850, and generally include accommodation (at least a campsite, if not a shared room) and meals. For two weeks. Very good value in my opinion. Mike TradingPostPaul wrote: Well, Mike, I'm having trouble locating where you differ from what I actually wrote. Laura said the books she found lacked details, and I referred to those books when I suggested "Could be those books are unclear on details because they're not actually growing anything". Neither of us mentioned Robert Hart; nor said he wasn't growing anything. Toby Hemenway's (Gaia's Garden) own "permaculture" is nothing but his (former) backyard garden. His claim of "permaculture" is an embarassment to the total holistic vision of Holmgren and Mollison. He's the guy who wrote about his contempt for rural life and rural people, who took his wife and Mercedes back to the night life in the city. He doesn't walk the walk. There are always phonies trying to cash in on the latest trend. I wrote "It's a nice philosophy but in practice it's just not focused on meeting the growing demand for food". And the way it's practiced - or not practiced - in this country is not focused on meeting the growing demand for food. I'm saying it isn't practiced by its apostles in this country. You're right, there are places in many countries where they make sustainable improvements in food growing and someone labels it "permaculture". Problem is, there's nothing new in "permaculture" except the word itself. In tree farming, Hart himself credited the earlier work of James Sholto Douglas in southern Africa, a Japanese, Toyohiko Kagawa, J. Russell Smith, Masanobu Fukuoka, and others. He refers to the extensive forest farming in Kerala, India. http://www.ecobooks.com/books/forgard.htm . Their traditional agriculture is subtropical, coastal and highly productive, and they never heard of "permaculture". In fact, every technique and practice claimed under the "permaculture" umbrella has been used somewhere for ages and probably by indigenous peoples and hunter-gatherers for millenia. The modern hubris of the West is largely blind to the bountiful lives and agricultural advances of the indigenous in many places throughout history. We think we invented everything - the automobile, basketball, permaculture. You mention that Permaculture courses HAVE solved hunger, social and environment issues. Yes, but the actual practices that help those problems in various countries have been around long before the word "permaculture" was invented. I'm not against forest gardening; it's just that it's been around forever. You write: |
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[Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
Bobby G, 03/04/2007
- Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates..., Ken Hargesheimer, 03/05/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
Laura McKenzie, 03/05/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
TradingPostPaul, 03/05/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
Mike E, 03/05/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
TradingPostPaul, 03/06/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
E. E. Mitchamore Jr, 03/06/2007
- Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates..., Mike E, 03/06/2007
- Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates..., yarrow, 03/06/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
Mike E, 03/06/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
TradingPostPaul, 03/07/2007
- Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates..., Gloria Baikauskas, 03/07/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
TradingPostPaul, 03/07/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
E. E. Mitchamore Jr, 03/06/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
TradingPostPaul, 03/06/2007
- Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates..., Laura McKenzie, 03/05/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
Gloria Baikauskas, 03/06/2007
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[Livingontheland] growing even more food,
Laura McKenzie, 03/06/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] growing even more food including herbs,
Gloria Baikauskas, 03/07/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] growing even more food including herbs,
Laura McKenzie, 03/07/2007
- Re: [Livingontheland] growing even more food including herbs, Kathy, 03/07/2007
- Re: [Livingontheland] growing even more food including herbs, yarrow, 03/07/2007
- Re: [Livingontheland] growing even more food including herbs, Gloria Baikauskas, 03/08/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] growing even more food including herbs,
Laura McKenzie, 03/07/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] growing even more food including herbs,
Gloria Baikauskas, 03/07/2007
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[Livingontheland] growing even more food,
Laura McKenzie, 03/06/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
Mike E, 03/05/2007
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Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...,
TradingPostPaul, 03/05/2007
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