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  • From: Mike E <mike.lists@mlxvi.org>
  • To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...
  • Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 10:02:43 +1300

Thanks for the clarification Paul. Even Mollison and Holmgren don't claim that permaculture is anything new. Mollison goes to length to explain that all he has done is put together what works in different parts of the world. When he presents a Permaculture Design Course his emphasis is on saving the world and he asks his students to go back home and present a course as soon as possible - or go to somewhere on earth that is in deep trouble to pass along the message.

Given that his requirements for the course are that everything in the manual gets covered there is little likelihood that any course will be presented by a person having experience in everything they lecture on. (I would venture to suggest that most of doesn't even get taught). So his request is not unreasonable. And if the student does go to a new country, his experience will soon outweigh those who practice in their own backyard.

Mollison himself is quite disdainful of the way permaculture is presented and commercialised in the US. And I imagine that his complaints would be much the same as those who complain on this list and other lists I have visited.

As a comparison, Permaculture Design Courses in my part of the world cost about $NZ1200, which is about $US850, and generally include accommodation (at least a campsite, if not a shared room) and meals. For two weeks. Very good value in my opinion.

Mike


TradingPostPaul wrote:
Well, Mike, I'm having trouble locating where you differ from what I
actually wrote. Laura said the books she found lacked details, and I
referred to those books when I suggested "Could be those books are unclear
on details because they're not actually growing anything". Neither of us
mentioned Robert Hart; nor said he wasn't growing anything. 

Toby Hemenway's (Gaia's Garden) own "permaculture" is nothing but his
(former) backyard garden. His claim of "permaculture" is an embarassment to
the total holistic vision of Holmgren and Mollison. He's the guy who wrote
about his contempt for rural life and rural people, who took his wife and
Mercedes back to the night life in the city. He doesn't walk the walk.
There are always phonies trying to cash in on the latest trend. 

I wrote "It's a nice philosophy but in practice it's just not focused on
meeting the growing demand for food". And the way it's practiced - or not
practiced - in this country is not focused on meeting the growing demand
for food. I'm saying it isn't practiced by its apostles in this country. 

You're right, there are places in many countries where they make
sustainable improvements in food growing and someone labels it
"permaculture". Problem is, there's nothing new in "permaculture" except
the word itself. In tree farming, Hart himself credited the earlier work of
James Sholto Douglas in southern Africa, a Japanese, Toyohiko Kagawa, J.
Russell Smith, Masanobu Fukuoka, and others. He refers to the extensive
forest farming in Kerala, India. http://www.ecobooks.com/books/forgard.htm
. Their traditional agriculture is subtropical, coastal and highly
productive, and they never heard of "permaculture".  In fact, every
technique and practice claimed under the "permaculture" umbrella has been
used somewhere for ages and probably by indigenous peoples and
hunter-gatherers for millenia. The modern hubris of the West is largely
blind to the bountiful lives and agricultural advances of the indigenous in
many places throughout history. We think we invented everything - the
automobile, basketball, permaculture. 

You mention that Permaculture courses HAVE solved hunger, social  and
environment issues. Yes, but the actual practices that help those problems
in various countries have been around long before the word "permaculture"
was invented. 

I'm not against forest gardening; it's just that it's been around forever. 

You write:
  
Permaculture shows that there are many successful ways of caring for the 
people, caring for the land, and sharing the surplus. Just because some 
of them don't fit into the way you like to do things, or the way you 
have seen things done, it doesn't invalidate any of them.
    
I'm curious where you saw me dissing the practices of "permaculture",
because I don't think I did. I just think it stinks for certain people to
claim they invented everything and call it "permaculture" and copyright the
word itself to try to cash in on everybody else's work than went before. I
sure don't need "permaculture" to know that there are many successful ways
of caring for the people, caring for the land, and sharing the surplus. All
things I've advocated tirelessly. 

You stress that Permaculture is about increasing the OVERALL yield. But
didn't I just say "the urgent need is millions of families working toward
sustainable, healthy food production for home and market"? If you read any
of my past messages you see my concern with overall yield. It's my main
focal point in fact. Surely you won't claim that only permaculturists are
concerned with overall yield. 

If there is something you differ on, please specify and we can discuss it.

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 3/6/2007 at 9:20 AM Mike E wrote:

  
I do see it differently Paul. Robert Hart pioneered a method of 
gardening that is incredibly productive (in terms of land area and 
external inputs). The fact that harvesting  is more labour intensive  is 
only an issue for those who wish to mechanise the process. The visual 
result is messy for those that still have this "control of nature" thing 
embedded in their psyche.

But in terms of overall yield, the forest garden cannot be beaten - in 
those areas of the world where the forest is the natural condition. If 
you live in an area that was originally a permaculture of grasslands, 
then you must establish its equivilent.

Which is where the original vision of the Permaculture Design Course 
came from. Permaculture is about increasing the OVERALL yield. Not just 
the beans, or just the corn. One of your other posts pointed in this 
very direction - the three sisters. No-one would suggest that planting 
all three would give more of every plant than planting just that one 
plant. But the combined yield far exceeds that that would be possible if 
you separated that plants out into their own areas.

The forest garden is just a more complex version of the three sisters. 
In a different part of the world with a different natural ecosystem.

That it doesn't lend itself to industrial agricultural methods is a 
strength, not a weakness. And the future of America's food is not in the 
corporate control of it anyway. It is in everyone's backyard.

    
Trendy, high-priced, feel-good seminars and fancy coffee table books 
        
do nothing to deal with what's happening in the real world.

This comment contains no specific and is thus impossible to refute. 
Permaculture courses HAVE solved hunger, social  and environment issues. 
And the perennial Permaculture books do contain information that has 
changed the fortunes of communities around the world. One single idea 
changed the balance of power and money (from concentrated to spread out) 
in an area of thousands of square miles in India.

    
Could be those books are unclear on details because they're not actually
        
growing anything

Again, you are surely not referring to the books you mentioned in the 
first paragraph. Robert Hart probably does not grow to sell in a 
commercial environment, but I'd challenge you to show that he doesn't 
grow anything, or that he doesn't even supply a massive amount of 
incredibly varied food for the consumption by him and his family in an 
incredibly small area.

Permaculture shows that there are many successful ways of caring for the 
people, caring for the land, and sharing the surplus. Just because some 
of them don't fit into the way you like to do things, or the way you 
have seen things done, it doesn't invalidate any of them.

Mike


TradingPostPaul wrote:
    
Others may see it differently, but my take on it is Gaia's Garden is
backyard hobby gardening, when the urgent need is millions of families
working toward sustainable, healthy food production for home and market.
It's a nice philosophy but in practice it's just not focused on meeting
      
the
    
growing demand for food. The U.S. is now a net IMporter of food; we are
      
NOT
    
the breadbasket to the world, and our irrigation water supplies are
dropping, the cost of fuel is rising, and much of the best farm soil is
severely depleted by decades of ignorance. The economic indicators all
point straight down. We are already in recession and the real price
      
misery
    
for consumers is yet to come. All these things make us more vulnerable
      
to
  
the weaknesses of just-in-time supermarket distribution and supply. 

Trendy, high-priced, feel-good seminars and fancy coffee table books do
nothing to deal with what's happening in the real world. Could be those
books are unclear on details because they're not actually growing
      
anything.
    
There are many down to earth, practical guides out there, and my time
      
and
  
energy is limited, so I have to focus on what I need to eat and sell
locally. I won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things, but
      
at
    
least I won't be part of the problem. 

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 3/5/2007 at 11:11 AM Laura McKenzie wrote:

  
      
Regarding Permaculture ideas, I found down to earth examples in "Gaia's
        
  
Garden" helpful and liked "How to Make a Forest Garden" too. Though I
        
used
    
    
        
  
      
gift certificates to buy both, I'm now learning the joys of interloan
        
as
  
our 
library has just started offering it. The library allows me to keep
        
each 
    
book for 10 days so I have to read quickly.

 I'd like to read more about permaculture too but many of the books
        
I've 
    
found are a bit unclear. They have concepts but not details!   I need
        
the 
    
details; I understand the concepts.

Laura
    
        

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