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livingontheland - Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...

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  • From: Mike E <mike.lists@mlxvi.org>
  • To: Healthy soil and sustainable growing <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] those $1,000 permaculture certificates...
  • Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:20:32 +1300

I do see it differently Paul. Robert Hart pioneered a method of gardening that is incredibly productive (in terms of land area and external inputs). The fact that harvesting  is more labour intensive  is only an issue for those who wish to mechanise the process. The visual result is messy for those that still have this "control of nature" thing embedded in their psyche.

But in terms of overall yield, the forest garden cannot be beaten - in those areas of the world where the forest is the natural condition. If you live in an area that was originally a permaculture of grasslands, then you must establish its equivilent.

Which is where the original vision of the Permaculture Design Course came from. Permaculture is about increasing the OVERALL yield. Not just the beans, or just the corn. One of your other posts pointed in this very direction - the three sisters. No-one would suggest that planting all three would give more of every plant than planting just that one plant. But the combined yield far exceeds that that would be possible if you separated that plants out into their own areas.

The forest garden is just a more complex version of the three sisters. In a different part of the world with a different natural ecosystem.

That it doesn't lend itself to industrial agricultural methods is a strength, not a weakness. And the future of America's food is not in the corporate control of it anyway. It is in everyone's backyard.

>>Trendy, high-priced, feel-good seminars and fancy coffee table books do nothing to deal with what's happening in the real world.

This comment contains no specific and is thus impossible to refute. Permaculture courses HAVE solved hunger, social  and environment issues. And the perennial Permaculture books do contain information that has changed the fortunes of communities around the world. One single idea changed the balance of power and money (from concentrated to spread out) in an area of thousands of square miles in India.

>>Could be those books are unclear on details because they're not actually growing anything
Again, you are surely not referring to the books you mentioned in the first paragraph. Robert Hart probably does not grow to sell in a commercial environment, but I'd challenge you to show that he doesn't grow anything, or that he doesn't even supply a massive amount of incredibly varied food for the consumption by him and his family in an incredibly small area.

Permaculture shows that there are many successful ways of caring for the people, caring for the land, and sharing the surplus. Just because some of them don't fit into the way you like to do things, or the way you have seen things done, it doesn't invalidate any of them.

Mike


TradingPostPaul wrote:
Others may see it differently, but my take on it is Gaia's Garden is
backyard hobby gardening, when the urgent need is millions of families
working toward sustainable, healthy food production for home and market.
It's a nice philosophy but in practice it's just not focused on meeting the
growing demand for food. The U.S. is now a net IMporter of food; we are NOT
the breadbasket to the world, and our irrigation water supplies are
dropping, the cost of fuel is rising, and much of the best farm soil is
severely depleted by decades of ignorance. The economic indicators all
point straight down. We are already in recession and the real price misery
for consumers is yet to come. All these things make us more vulnerable to
the weaknesses of just-in-time supermarket distribution and supply. 

Trendy, high-priced, feel-good seminars and fancy coffee table books do
nothing to deal with what's happening in the real world. Could be those
books are unclear on details because they're not actually growing anything.
There are many down to earth, practical guides out there, and my time and
energy is limited, so I have to focus on what I need to eat and sell
locally. I won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things, but at
least I won't be part of the problem. 

paul tradingpost@lobo.net

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 3/5/2007 at 11:11 AM Laura McKenzie wrote:

  
Regarding Permaculture ideas, I found down to earth examples in "Gaia's 
Garden" helpful and liked "How to Make a Forest Garden" too. Though I used
    
  
gift certificates to buy both, I'm now learning the joys of interloan as
our 
library has just started offering it. The library allows me to keep each 
book for 10 days so I have to read quickly.

 I'd like to read more about permaculture too but many of the books I've 
found are a bit unclear. They have concepts but not details!   I need the 
details; I understand the concepts.

Laura
    


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